After reading some of Karen O's posts I thought look at the aspect of betrayal in the relationship. It seems that her biggest emotion was the betrayal she felt after finding out her husband crossdressed. The fact that he wanted to crossdress was not important it was the fact that he had kept it secret for so many years that hurt the most. Betrayal is a strong emotion and a hard one to conquer.
The following article is by is by Randi Gunther Ph.D. and was published in Psychology today. I'll add a link at the end. I thought I'd reproduce it as a whole so I could add my own thoughts and highlight parts that I think are particularly relevant . So here goes:
'In my four decades of being a relationship therapist, over half of the couples who come in to see me do so because of some kind of broken trust. Most of them want to rebuild their relationship, and many do stay together. Sadly, that doesn’t mean that they have truly healed that anguishing breach.
There is a marked difference between preserving an existing relationship and committing to build a new one out of the rubble. The pain and sorrow that accompanies an anguishing rift in trust does not easily dissipate. Both partners must be fully committed to whatever it takes to learn from what has happened and turn towards a believable future.
Even when there are strong feelings of guilt, fear, anger, hurt, insecurity, self-doubt, and humiliation, many intimate partners may still have a bond that they do not want to end. Their relationship may still be deeply connected to friends, family, religious or spiritual ideals, financial stability, and their mutual, important history. They may also abhor facing social judgments that can span from support to shame. Both partners struggle to balance between continuing a besieged relationship and experiencing the grief of splitting up.
Betrayals come in many forms. When couples look back in time, they realize that some might have been predictable. Others seem to have crept up, without the partners realizing that an inevitable breach was about to occur. Even when a relationship seems healthy and unassailable, they can fall prey to a betrayal that cannot be easily predicted or explained.
Most people hold the word betrayal as synonymous with infidelity. Perhaps that is because it is the most common form of broken trust in an intimate relationship, and represents the most basic elements that destroy faith between intimate partners. Committed partners traditionally promise one another that they will remain faithful for the duration of their relationship and they use that sacred agreement as the foundation of all other trusts between them. When one breaks that promise, the fallout from that deception infiltrates the sexual, emotional, mental, and spiritual bond that couple have based their love upon.
Though both men and women share many overlapping emotional responses to being betrayed by a partner, the men I see often experience the loss differently. They tell me that they feel not only betrayed, but also robbed by a “brother” who has taken what was rightfully theirs. Even if they initially try to see their partner as having been taken advantage of by that other man, they eventually come to the realization that their deceiving partner had to have had a part in her decision, making it harder for them to forgive her.
Many women whom I have treated are wounded and angry by their partner’s betrayals, but their underlying programming often makes them feel in some way responsible. Perhaps they feel that they have not been sexually satisfying or that men have a harder time being committed to just one woman. Even though they know that their partners made the decision to deceive, but still wonder what they might have done wrong. The sting of being replaced and the fear of loss often eclipse their legitimate feelings of betrayal. Those confusing contradictions are most often manifested in alternate feelings of rage and grief.
Though infidelity encompasses areas that are familiar to most, there are other breaches of trust that can be as equally destructive to a relationship. They produce similar feelings and reactions, and the same challenges for couples to overcome. For example, the repeated patterns of people caught up in addictions can slowly erode the trust of any intimate partner. Those trying-hard-to-keep-believing partners often come to me riddled with the anguish of multiple broken promises from partners who have vowed to give up compulsive and destructive patterns of self-abuse. They want to believe each new set of promises, but wear thin over time being unable to compete with the demons that pull their partners away. (I don't think any crossdresser should promise that they will give up forever. I don't know of anyone who has successfully purged and never gone back to crossdressing - maybe people do but equally many just start again and keep the deception hidden)
Why, then, if betrayal is so destructive to most relationships, do couples find themselves so often enmeshed in them, and what do they need to understand to not only make them less likely to happen but possible to overcome?
When couples commit to a relationship, they agree to follow the ethics, values, and behaviors that will ensure that their relationship continues to thrive. Depending on how well they know themselves and each other, they make those agreements in good faith, and trust that each will live by them.
However, in many long-term relationships, most people’s needs, desires, and dreams change over time. What each partner was very willing to commit to at the beginning of the relationship often needs reevaluation and revision as the relationship matures. If intimate partners are open and authentic with each other from the start, they let one another know right away if the original agreements need to be re-examined. They then work hard at renegotiating them to keep the partnership up-to-date and alive. They find no need to keep their thoughts and feelings from one another even if they are hard to express. In that kind of atmosphere of openness and authenticity, they do not allow secrecy to take root. (I think that this paragraph is particularly important. My needs, desires and dreams related to crossdressing have definitely changed over time)
Unfortunately, that level of courageous and heroic openness is not typical for most partners. In many committed relationships, one or both partners may, over time, not feel as comfortable with his or her initial commitments and fear reprisal or loss if they confess them. Understandably reticent to share those potentially threatening feelings, that partner may keep them silent, hoping the thoughts or feelings are just a passing fancy and will hopefully dissipate over time. Sometimes, they do. But, at other times, they begin to take on a life of their own, becoming more difficult to ignore or confess. As those experiences grow stronger, they become the drivers that push that partner into acting upon them.
Here is an illustration. Many years ago, I was working with a couple whose relationship was on the brink of disaster. There had been no infidelity, no addiction, no unspoken redistribution of funds, or any breaking of the bonds of devotion to family. Yet, what happened between them made reconciliation and healing impossible.
John and Mary (fictitious names) had grown up in the same town and known each other since the fourth grade. They attended the same Catholic Church and schools together and their parents were devoted to each other and to their God. Their marriage was witnessed by over three hundred people who had known them since childhood, and blessed them for a charmed life of commitments to their religion and to each other.
When John was accepted at a prestigious college in Boston, Mary and their 1-year-old daughter dutifully followed. They found a compatible church close by their modest apartment. They quickly made friends within the church and began their mutual devotion in the new parish.
John had a style of kindness and openness that easily blended with other students and professors in his new academic environment. He began hanging out with people who had different social, economic, and religious points of view. As he learned about their new ways of looking at social, political, and religious ideas, he began to doubt some of the religious doctrines he had unerringly and willingly followed all of his life.
At first, he felt like he was committing a sin to doubt his lifetime path to God. He didn’t have the heart to tell his wife of his conflict for fear that she would not be able to handle the situation. Yet, his desire to understand how his Catholicism fit into the greater picture of multiple religious devotions began to deepen and grow. Pretending to study at school, he began attending meetings at a Buddhist temple with the new friends he had grown to love and admire. The teachings felt freeing to him and more similar to the way he currently felt about his personal devotion to God.
After a few months, Mary noticed that he seemed fidgety at church and uncomfortable in the presence of the priest. She suggested he go talk to him if he was struggling with something. She was sure he could help.
Fortunately, the priest was gentle and supportive. He encouraged John to find the best in both of those paths and to search for a way to God that felt right for him. That night, emboldened by the priest’s kindness and understanding, he confessed his feelings to Mary, hoping she would understand. Sadly, his worst fears came to be. Aghast, angry, and frightened, Mary threatened to leave him if he did not immediately change his mind and his behavior. She felt not only betrayed, but humiliated that he had been “carrying on” with this “anti-Christ” behavior behind her back. She believed that her husband had perpetrated a terrible sin and that God would only forgive him if he immediately returned to their professed faith. Issuing him a final ultimatum, she would take their child and leave him forever were he to make any other decision.
From Mary’s point of view, this was a case of unforgivable betrayal. John’s feelings of self-doubt and guilt combined with her understandable feelings of being deceived were no different from what I had witnessed many times in dealing with couples undergoing the betrayal of sexual infidelity. They had agreed to live by the same rules and ethics and he had knowingly deceived her by committing to another belief. She could not forgive him his act of betrayal and could not grow into a new agreement that would allow him to be authentic. Both were suffering the terrible loss of each other, but neither could give up the competitive commitments that were crucial to each. Sadly, their situation was irreconcilable. The agonizing breach eclipsed whatever bond they had carefully established and nurtured.
But not all betrayals, even at this level of heartache, are beyond hope. I have seen other relationships where the partners so value one another that the concept that they will never be together again is simply unacceptable to both. They become committed to the possibility that the betrayal will somehow become the foundation for a deeper and more devoted relationship and they are willing to do whatever is necessary to make that happen.
If a couple suffering the agony of broken trust is committed to transforming their relationship, they must both be willing to follow some clear guidelines for this kind of miraculous outcome to happen.
The partner who has clearly betrayed the other must be able to witness and admit his or her intentional breaking of the emotional, physical, spiritual, or intellectual faith they once shared. That remorse must be absolute and the deception must not be excused by the situation at hand. People who have made self-serving decisions to act in a way that causes irreparable harm to their partners must be willingly accountable for what they have done. They cannot blame, make excuses, dismiss or minimize the action, nor expect their partners to heal before they are ready. They must also be willing to do whatever is necessary to put in the energy, time, and caring required to build a new relationship.
The betrayed partners have their own path. Yes, they have had their world turned upside down and have undergone severe damage to their sense of trust, self-worth, and faith in the other partner. But, they must still be willing to fight for resolution despite their legitimate pain. If love and other sacred attachments are still present, those betrayed partners must be open to examine their own participation in what has happened and work hard to get through the understandable need to express their wounds and desires to retaliate. When the couples I’ve known who have been fully willing to commit to this hazardous journey, they look back at the betrayal as the wake-up call that preceded a new level of commitment and depth in their relationship.
Katie x
I don't think my husband could have kept this secret for life I'd have discovered it at some point.
I think its better you know and if you want your marriage to work accept it or put the bit of deceit to the back of your mind but it must sometimes boil to the fore and frustrate and anger you.
Hannah (Wife)
Thanks for the open post @rgwhannahHannah, I've not come across another so openly liberated sexual couple on here as you two.
I get the drift on if he'd gone off behind your back sexually a betrayal and can also see Karen O's point her husband gallivanting as a tgirl about but telling her he was somewhere else as a betrayal of trust.
@alina You're right why tell your wife if you think the result will cause a problem to the marriage, rejection and a feeling of betrayal? It is a risk and a risk some forced into where they've been discovered and had to spill the beans in a direct please explain or my circumstance believing Esme had discovered I was crossdressing and her asking to dress me up was her way of calling me out which it wasn't but decided to tell her everything anyway and I'm glad I told her and it's worked out ok in the end.
It doesn't for everyone. and here is the dilema to tell or not to tell? or to risk being found out? or tell and pray for a reaction short of "Get out"
1.Tell them, but (given the risks) you would need to be sure that you value the ability to crossdress at least as much, or maybe even more, than you value your marriage. (Accepting that you might get lucky and she loves the idea)
I value my marriage and relationship with Esme much more than Crossdressing .. one is real the other is a part time thing like a side hobby take it or leave it but has a side effect of escapism and relaxation which has changed from earlier years being a turn on and get off.
I value being able to crossdress but its insignificant compared to my marriage. it's that important unimportant thing for me not a dystopia just an urge and something that helps me relax and i enjoy it. Explaining this as best you can if you do tell is a big part of the battle for the next step ok you've told her now you have to alay fears and assure her you're not running off with the take away delivery guy and not running off to become a woman,
2. Carry on the deceit (strong word for what might be a very low level and occasional bit of self-indulgence, but I'll use it for now) but be VERY careful. Guess this is where I am right now
Deceit is a strong word as what you're doing physically causes no hard mentally maybe it will but talking and explaining can cure that. As some of the other girls on here have said with this one there's the chance of being caught or lingerie found and an accusation of an affair then having to come clean it's your clothing and then there is the feeling of being lied to and betrayal maybe but again with talking this can be overcome.
3. Just stop. Think this is where I am heading. I'll still have the desire and think about it of course, but I managed perfectly well for 21 years of marriage without, so can't see it being a huge deal.
Stopping? Lots have tried. some have purged. If you can then good luck to you.
I use it for escapism and relaxation as much as enjoying doing it. Maybe in time if i don't feel the same when i do get chance to dress and the magic stress relief wears off or i don't think i can look the part any more then maybe I'll stop too.
Your three points sum up most but there's a difference keeping yourself to yourself dressing and doing it outside the family home by which i don't mean in a hotel when away with work but out at trans events and as Karens pointed out somewhere but telling your wife you're somewhere else that's deceit and betrayal and takes even more to talk and get over.
Maybe not something for me to advise on as my "coming out" to Esme was accidental more than anything thinking she'd sussed me and prior to her dressing me up I was scarcely dressing and not fully like today. From that point on my dressing if anything grew.
How do wives feel about their husbands keeping this secret for life?
What you don't know won't hurt you?
Davina
Aww Davina tell Esme we miss her and want to hear her thoughts.
Karen i see your though on betrayal.
We all found out differently and handled it differently.
We had to do some hard and awkward talking from me being freaked out he was a crossdresser to worrying about his sexuality to accepting his sexuality.
I don't feel betrayed as we've made this something we do together and we dfinatly fit into the fetish and sexualised side of crossdressing. We enjoy fun on web cam and seeing people get turned on and get off and on this journey we have both discovered our sexuality mentally and physically which was a shock to us both.
I know we are different from everyone here as we joke about me being the resident sexpert and all that but we enjoy sex and we've done the family thing had kids who have moved out god forbid they discover hes a crossdresser and what we get upto sexually but we came to a conclusion we've done the family thing and in our 50s (schhh) we see sex as fun pleasure and we've become more open about our kinks and fantasies and have lived some of them out between ourselves and with other people and seen eachother with other people.
I think the point i'm trying to make is yes we're a bit different on this forum i've not heard anyone else progressed like us but we did this together after the initial shock of him dressing i got to grips with that then the quesiton of sexuality and we got over that we did this together.
Had he been doing things behind my back then yes like Karen I'd feel betrayed.
Hannah (Wife)
It's worth putting here as there are t girls here contemplating telling wives after years of marriage and maybe this betrayal feeling awaits so some explaining to do.
My "coming out" i think was more fortunate and subsequent handling of the situation over many years with Esme to some acceptance and resolution.
Wish she'd come in here and add if she felt betrayed but all i get when I mention the forum and her input is "Meh" at the moment
Davina
For clarification I'm not trying to say that every wife of a crossdresser will feel betrayed. But some will and we need to recognise that emotion and know how to deal with it should it arise. I think the article demonstrates a path out of that emotion and it is a good starting point. Some crossdressers may expect their wife's emotions to be different so if you are not prepared to deal with betrayal then you will not be able to help.
Katie x
@katie Thanks for posting - it's a very interesting read.
Reading all this i think it's hard to put things in print as it can be twisted but i get everything everyone says here.
I'm a wife and I don't feel betrayed by my husband being a crossdresser.
I realise it was hard for him to keep and yes i would rather have dressed my husband up for a bit of fun like Esme did for him to say I've done this before I'm a crossdresser than to come home from work and catch him red handed crossdressed that took some explaining and thank god i found you guys here to help my sanity at the time.
Once we'd talked and i got some pointers how and what to talk about we worked it out and its been for the better but at no point did i feel betrayed at all just shocked and a little scared of what may happen if he wanted to be a woman or was gay the usual.
I think i can see how Karen feels reading her thoughts with her husband going out behind her back leaving her to look after a son being lied to about where he was is a lie and a betrayal but Davina also right fortunately my husband was privately dressing behind closed doors and now i have some control over the situation and enjoy him dressed he like you maybe is softer and nicer if thats the right word when dressed and a stress head as a man.
So no crossdressing in my experience isnt betrayal but thats down to my circumstances others are different.
Emma (wife)
I think that we need to acknowledge that everyone will have different feelings and we cannot diminish those emotion. I think that our purpose of this forum is to help wives and girlfriends to understand what motivates their other half to want to crossdress.
If I understand Karen correctly then her feeling of betrayal was not linked to the actual act of crossdressing but the lies and deceit of her husband living a double life at her expense. He could have as easily been having an affair or spending weekends away playing golf and the feelings could have been the same.
For every Karen there is another wife who may find the actual act of crossdressing perverted and that is enough reason to end a marriage.
In each case if a relationship is to be saved then the wife must come to terms with the emotions that have boiled up inside her. To do that she must understand what motivates a man to crossdress. By itself crossdressing is pretty harmless it is just the emotions associated with it that make it such an issue. The husband must also understand the emotions that his wife is feeling which is why it is so valuable to have comments from a wife's perspective no matter how difficult they may be. If we can have empathy and understanding then relationships can be rebuilt.
I hope that some of explanations I have previously given about the guilt, shame and vulnerability we feel as crossdressers goes in someway to explaining our actions. There never seems a right time to tell someone you are a crossdresser and waiting for the perfect time means it just isn't going to happen. Maybe as the article says we lack the courage to be that open with a partner. I'm sure that it is a two way thing, it is human nature to only show your good side to the world!
I think this paragraph is worth reading again especially if you read it from a crossdressers point of view. 'Unfortunately, that level of courageous and heroic openness is not typical for most partners. In many committed relationships, one or both partners may, over time, not feel as comfortable with his or her initial commitments and fear reprisal or loss if they confess them (crossdresser doesn't want to lose their partner) Understandably reticent to share those potentially threatening feelings, that partner may keep them silent, hoping the thoughts or feelings are just a passing fancy (something we did as teenager that has passed) and will hopefully dissipate over time. Sometimes, they do. But, at other times, they begin to take on a life of their own, becoming more difficult to ignore or confess (hit again by the desire in 30/40s). As those experiences grow stronger, they become the drivers that push that partner into acting upon them (buying our own clothes and experimenting with our look)'
I don't think that we deliberately set out to mislead our wives. It's just that we put it off and then it takes on a life of its own. Maybe if we realised the hurt it may cause later then we'd take a different approach.
Katie x
My point is we're all different.
My Crossdressing may be different to the next mans crossdressing which is why there is no stock answer to "Why do men Crossdress" there are many answers. Some match and some don't and in what does match a varying degree of why because analysis hence my talk on pye charts.
We're all different is the point and all have different experiences.
Esme asked to dress me as a women for a laugh, i told her i'd crossdressed before and had done it all my life and we took it from there. I blurted it out and may have given the impression every moment she left the house i was dressing when in fact it was once or twice per year or not at all and it was certainly not with makeup and always dressing fully as a woman.
I had no clue when i told her well over a decade ago that crossdressing would grow into an urge to help me unwind and escape "Alpha Male Stress".. So I don't think i betrayed her trust, in fact i informed her and involved her in it and wanted to win her trust and not have her worry about it and felt really guilty for putting her through being married to a crossdresser
Other wives have more reason than just the crossdressing to feel betrayed.
I think it's Karen Adlers book "Something to confess" she finds out that her husband when away with work was going out to clubs dressed as a woman. She felt betrayed but worked on it with him.
We have Emma here who came home from work early and found her husband crossdressed but more like me privately dressing at home.
Hannah has embraced it again private dressing at home at the start and also Rebecca and a few other wives lucky to find their husbands dressing at home in private. I think you're pretty unique to the site @KarenO with your husband out and about without your knowledge dressed as a woman very akin to Karen Adlers husband like yours was going out to clubs. Here's a link to her book, I wonder if there are similarities.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Something-Confess-Karen-Adler-ebook/dp/B008BI8GQS
A review from Amazon from someone not associated with Crossdressing
"I am not related to or nor do I have any close transvestite or cross dresser friends. I decided to read this book on the whim. To be honest I wasn't sure if I would enjoy the book as I knew I wouldn't be able to relate to the story... however I was surprised!
It's a quite a short book (just the right length) and I was intrigued to read about Mark and Karen's experience. I didn't know much about the cross dressing and transvestite world before reading the book, and it's really opened my eyes.
This is an awful thing to admit, but if someone had asked me before reading this book how I would feel if my boyfriend told me he was a transvestite I would say that I would freak out and end our relationship, because surely he must be gay or sex mad. But after reading this lovely book it's made me realise that is not the case"
Then the doubting wife akin to Sindy who used to be our baseline here
"This book gives a bit of insight to how it feels to be a partner of a crossdresser. However, I dont think its written very well as its in nice bite size chapters like a romantic novel would be and I cant help feeling that its written by a ghost writer as theres just too much product placement etc. The wife seems to take it all in her stride including have sexual intercourse with her husband all dressed up. This doesnt feel like a true story about the reaction to your partner coming out as a crossdresser. Instead it feels like a man has rewritten his own history about how he fantasized it would go"
The T girls reaction to the book
"I really loved this book and can relate to it in many ways.
As many other t-girls will know it is a therapy that helps our acceptance when we meet other t-girls and real girls and can talk over our real live stories and feelings. By putting pen to paper to beautifully tell this story Karen has reinforced my feeling of acceptance. And that means a lot to me.
So often we are the butt of so many jokes and ridicule it's very comforting to read such an open and honest view of how she came to terms with her shock of this devastating news. I love the added the humour, not to ridicule but just an obvious way for her to imagine the situation and goings on of her husband when dressed..."Bette Lynch in leopard leggings"..."image of my husband gyrating on the dance floor alongside other men in dresses"..."my husband sitting on floral settees, sipping tea, making polite ladylike conversation"..."he was not a woman, not a wife and not, ironically, in my shoes"...these and others made me laugh out loud!
Hopefully if I can pick the right moment, I can get my wife to read this story, I'm sure it will help her understand that lots of partners are in a similar situation all with their own stories and ways of coping.
Thanks to the author for sharing this very private part of your live.
I highly recommend this book to anyone in a similar situation"
3 differing reactions one questioning if this is more fantasy than reality and i can only take it on face value having actually chatted to someone claiming to be Karen Adler on a few occasions on line that it's not a work of fiction.
It is a different matter if someone actually betrayed trust misleading their location or what they're doing when away from home, telling you one thing and doing another, that's not just the crossdressing, the crossdressing adds to it and heightens it maybe.
I think is what I'm trying to say.
If he was merely Crossdressing at home alone would you have felt so betrayed?
Davina
I think you are missing the point in the betray aspect @Davina. The betrayal is not the fact that he cross dressed it is the fact that he took advantage of the trust that I had in him actually being where he said he was and not having a knees up at a night club. I trusted that he was having to work and run in on a Saturday. He left me here looking after HIS disabled son and me being none the wiser on what he was up to. He took advantage of me dealing with his ex, social services and police while he was off de- stressing with not a thought about giving me a break.
So cross dressing to me is not really an issue it is the damage that has been done by him keeping the secret and damaging the trust that I had in him. The fact that he made me feel like he was laughing at how stupid I was to not have known what he was up to.
I am very hurt that he thought that it was ok to treat me like that, the person he married and supposed to love and be with.
Sorry for the rant.
I get but don't get the betrayal for reasons I've added in other threads.. what real harm is done? should i have told my wife i sporadically crossdressed in the past?
Did I know my dressing up would kick off in my 30s and 40s and become some sort of escapism?
Its a private thing for a lot of crossdressers and its harmless.
The start of this article for me is a different context surely? but the next bit is the Kubler-Ross curve guilt, fear, anger, hurt, insecurity, self-doubt, and humiliation all part of that curve.
I don't think I've betrayed Esme at all for being a crossdresser.
Sure if I'd known in my 40s id have this urge to dressed up completely as a woman she'd have thought i was mad and maybe run a mile when she was 18/19 when we got together because of the society view on what crossdressing is but knowing it was something i did rarely and not at all when dating why would i tell her it was pretty insignificant for a while and developed more after she asked to dress me as a woman for a laugh.
Infidelity is something else that's a betrayal. That breaks marriage vows.. I don't seem to recall i promise not to dress as a woman in my vows.
Things change over time we change we adapt we move on. We've had lots of things change in our relationship and things happen far more serious and devastating than crossdressing.. Women change... Back to my at what point in time did we discuss with our wives they'd stop wearing nice lingerie and high heels etc?
This is downplayed but it happens and us blokes think what happened one min shes in a dress and heels and red lips and now leggings flat shoes joggers no lippy etc and if we say whats going on we're sexist or whatever .. so we wear those things and become a pariah as a crossdresser.. (note a % of why i dress is to wear things Esme doesn't wear which goes back to the same reason i dressed when younger to wear things I liked on women)
Back to the unwritten agreement in a relationship that is putting away the high heels and sexy lingerie ... I don't get it!!
This is as drastic a change to us when a wife finds some form of comfort and achievement maybe contentment.. house, husband, kids and relax... and cease to make as much an effort for us men but will get the heels and red lips and dress back out for a night out with the girls!!!!.. I'm not even joking this affects us.
The religious example escapes me as I'm not religious at all its the cause of many a war is my thoughts on it.
There's give and take in a relationship and fault on both sides at times.
Crossdressing is overblown its not a betrayal in my book, it needs to be understood and like any change in a relationship worked on and an agreement set up which is how we handled it.
Davina