By: Davina

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tolerance, acceptance and understanding

I get what you're saying Sindy

My wife acceptance has got to this point as I've kept on about it through wanting to reassure her and for her to see the fun in crossdressing not wanting her to worry about it.

Initially she said ok you dress I don't want to know don't want to see it like it doesn't happen and that grew as it was like living a lie I had to talk about it I didn't want to hide it from her and we set several rules to now having the odd (odd lol) girls night in and I work from home or in a hotel dressed and she knows sees and is ok with it..

Now I mentioned perhaps the feeling of wanting to go out dressed somewhere miles from home for some unknown reason and she said ok do it but I don't need to know about it simple right just go out don't tell her and have this secret life... NO! I said I want you to know she said ok go out then tell me you've done it um no id prefer you to know if I'm gonna do it and would prefer youre there.

I later apologised for moving the boundaries exponentially again but she said what are you apologising for..

her initial thought tho was do it an I don't need to know about it which I wasn't comfortable with.

By: Katie

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tolerance, acceptance and understanding

For me you hit the nail on the head when you said 'do you just want understanding that this is part of you and you'd like to live without shame and self loathing'.

I think that acceptance is pretty constant whereas tolerance can flip and flaps you said. I used to think that the UK was pretty tolerant but all of a sudden events have caused it to become a lots less tolerant and in some case totally intolerant.

How much understanding you need to become accepting is up for debate. I don't think you need to know all the nitty gritty and maybe some people are just too set n their ways to ever be anything than tolerant. But I do believe that peoples opinions can be changed if they are willing to listen and show understanding. When I say understanding I probably talking about empathy as opposed to knowledge.

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tolerance, acceptance and understanding

And thought I'd add, the only reason I eventually ended up here discussing it all is because that's my personality type. I can't help it and do this with everything lol. But from what I learned of many of the women I chatted to a decade ago, they don't discuss it with their husbands and don't want to. Topic over. That's the only way they can accept it in their lives.

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Tolerance, acceptance and understanding

Well, I guess if that small shift is important, especially in a loved one, then understanding isn't always the way forward. On one particular forum I frequented, many women started off closer to the acceptance side, and as more of the truth and information revealed itself, the more they swung back to tolerant. Some even shifted all the way to intolerant and the marriage ended.

I guess it depends on what 'understanding' means. Do you want partners to realise the inner workings of all this - that it's a compulsion; it's a high; you've needed it since childhood; you will never stop; you often think about dressing in public; you have lesbian fantasies; yes, you have a shopping problem lol. Or, do you just want understanding that this is part of you and you'd like to live without shame and self loathing?

The former has on occasion ended marriages. Only because, knowledge is power but only if that person WANTS the power. If I'd known half what I know now about crossdressing I actually think I would have reconsidered the relationship back when we were having trouble. I find some of what I've learned disturbing, I really do. The communication that did help me was discussing how I DIDNT want to know too much about it (back then...now I enjoy learning) as it's already upsetting to discover your partner has a compulsion that they have to actively control or it could destroy them. I liken it to finding out your wife is bipolar. So we discussed how HE would carry this burden from now on, how it would no longer affect our family life, how he UNDERSTOOD that I would probably never like this side of him but that didn't mean anything other than I don't like crossdressing. And I don't. More importantly, I don't have to like it. I also hate golf and he does that, too. Yet he never seems to consider that an attack on his person, you know?

I guess I'm trying to say that shifting to acceptance might be harder if a wife is armed with too much information that does nothing but validate her fears. Lets face it, even you and Davina have written out things here that would make many a wife think 'wtf have I got myself into'. The desire to go out in public - chatting with others online - how much you want sex while dressed. All big fears and you guys have validated them all here!

It will depend on the woman. That's my final thought. One woman might shift forward with more knowledge, while another might freak out and tell you to stop. The former wife should be told everything. The latter should be SHOWN how responsible and controlled you are and maybe her acceptance will grow. How well do you know your wives?

By: Katie

Subject: Re: Re: Tolerance, acceptance and understanding

I think that there is s slight nuance between tolerance and acceptance.

In the example you give about being gay. A gay man maybe tolerated which means that basically people don't like it but won't do anything about it because it doesn't affect them. If the same gay man is accepted then people are OK with him being gay as long as it doesn't affect them.

I think that anyone would sooner be accepted than just tolerated especially by a loved one.

I understand that most women would sooner that their partner wasn't a crossdresser but it's just that small jump from tolerance to acceptance that maybe we crave.

In an ideal world we'd be embraced by are partners and our difference be celebrated but I'm pragmatic enough to know that that's not really going to happen in the real world.

So the question is how does someone move from tolerance to acceptance or are some people just unable to accept something that is different from their own views? I think that understanding does help but again if we, as crossdressers, don't understand ourselves properly then we can't expect anyone else to understand either.

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Tolerance, acceptance and understanding

Tolerance - the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with.

Acceptance - the process or fact of being received as adequate, valid, or suitable.

Honestly, I feel the two are not dissimilar and a tolerant society would not be much different than an accepting society. Acceptance doesn't mean that people LIKE the person or their behaviour - just that they're perceived as being sane and harmless and I guess will be left alone to live their life. Tolerant people might dislike the behaviour but you'll be left alone to live your life. Same result.

Is understanding needed to reach this point? I don't think so. Most straight people don't understand the drive behind same sex attraction yet a tolerance has formed and people now see them as part of the unique human fabric. Non crossdressers will never understand why you do this (I still don't!) but they can adjust to the reality that you're not a threat and let you live your lives. I don't see much more than this happening. Humans are only ever a tolerant species. Joyful exuberance about others proclivities just ain't going to happen on a broad scale lol.

I also think the word you're looking for, Davina, is 'embrace'. You don't want mere acceptance by your wife - you'd prefer her to embrace and enjoy this part of you. This is rare. Emma isn't even at this level as this would suggest she would PREFER her husband was a crossdresser and I don't think this is the case. Of course, I could be wrong so Emma is better answering that.

So if you ask me, I personally think tolerance is the most crossdressers can ask of the world. Understanding won't happen. Society embracing it won't happen. Work on not getting beaten up for being yourselves and you've gone further than other subsets of society. People still attack each other for having different religions, or a different culture. We are all entitled to live without fear!

As for wives embracing the crossdressing - just too much heavy biology there making that very difficult. Women can tolerate and accept a partner they know and love. But very few single women would consider feminine presentation (even part time) as an attractive trait and would likely avoid a crossdresser, so be grateful you have the support you have and let this one go. Young crossdressers need to spend less time searching for this very rare woman and more time becoming well rounded interesting men so that crossdressing doesn't define them. Like you and Davina! :-)

Of course, if crossdressers did forge a path to open public tolerance, this will also likely be a defining moment for many of you and that may be the drawback. Ask a gay guy what most people would use to describe him, and it's always 'that gay guy'. Be prepared to be 'that cross dressing guy' and to own that label. You may crawl out of one box, only to be forced into another.

Just saying it as I see it, like always.

By: Davina

Subject: Re: Tolerance, acceptance and understanding

Not just tolerated but accepted is something I agree with 100% in terms of it's not the norm but also doing no harm and it's only "weird" as society says it's weird...

So my wife accepts its something I do but she tolerates it more than accepts it I think as she would rather I didn't crossdress.

It would be amazing if people accepted crossdressing to be in the normal behaviours of men as I think it is as lots more men than will admit it have tried it or do it..

A good question for the wives and girlfriends on here as I suspect the majority tolerate it but seems Emma has accepted it and is having fun with Crossdressing but she's a minority in this acceptance?

Tolerance is definitely the first step and why i was keen to keep talking to my wife as wanted her acceptance not just tolerance for myself selfishly and for her own peace of mind.

How do you move from tolerance to acceptance without understanding?

Lots of open and honest talking about crossdressing, about fears and limits and get to grips with it which in my case has taken years and tears at times and sometimes beer and wine lol.