By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Aesthetics - A man in a dress

Hey Emma, I've found when it won't post that you need to scroll down to the bottom of the page and complete one of those security things - 'choose all the flower pictures' or something. Once you've done it, press done and then send, I think that's how I do it, and your post will be there.

I only figured this out after mine wouldn't post either. I think Davina's blog thought I was spam lol.

And I'd love to read your thoughts here. We're blathering away but I'm missing hearing what you and Hannah have to say. x

By: Emma RG

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Aesthetics - A man in a dress

Hi I'm still here

2nd time I've tried to post it didn't publish

I'm still making an effort with how I dress heels and makeup and have found the other halfs urge to crossdress has diminished.

I may add something on this later as Davinas thought on dressing partly for compensation for a partner not making the effort and dressing nice may be right

By: Davina

Subject: Re: Re: Aesthetics - A man in a dress

Read some of my post back and realise I sound a bit of a snob going on about convincing looking t girls etc

Anyone ca crossdress but I feel if you're going to do it fully you need to do justice and make a great attempt at looking convincing if you are going to post a photo or are going to go out in public.

Other wise theres the drag queen tag or crossdresser tag which leads everyone to believe the orange foundation with the pink lips and the fishnets etc is how all us crossdresers look.

It doesn't really matter but I think if youre gonna go out either go for the drag queen obvious look or otherwise you have to try to look your best as a woman and not demean what it is to look like a woman if that makes sense.

Of course by go out theres our in general or out to a trans event where other rules are probably set and you can look like however you want.. I don't know as not part of this scene.

In terms of someones reaction to a 'passing' crossdresser I think people would sway more towards wow good job you really do look like a woman compared to the oompalumpa which people may cross the street to avoid.

The Crying game a good film that and watching it as a kid I didn't identify with it as I was crossdressing but didn't think of myself like the girl / guy in the film as a transsexual or transvestite and was a bit appalled by some bloke falling for her then realising she was a he etc at the time..

But I never ever linked what I did crossdressing at the time with the guy / girl in the Crying Game.

There is a place for men who emulate women without having to 'pass' we're not all lucky enough to have the right bone structure, invisible adams apple and great legs...

If society became accustomed to men doing the 'drag' thing without the association with being gay, wouldn't that be better? YES - I am not GAY! and I Crossdress!!

Right Next question lol

And where's Emma and Hannah gone?

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Aesthetics - A man in a dress

I agree with most of Davina's answers. Androgyny isn't related to crossdressing in my mind either. I figure that's a person who doesn't want to represent either gender whereas a crossdresser is clearly wanting to dabble in the opposite gender.

I'm really not sure if people would react better to a 'passing' crossdresser than one who looks like an oompaloompa (lol, that comment cracked me up, Davina). I'd say that's because people don't realize it's a man. If they did, would the response be better or worse? Might people not feel tricked? I'd suggest this is every heterosexual man's worst nightmare so maybe passing is a dangerous game if you're not a transwoman! Think 'The Crying Game' !

I personally think there's a place in the world for men who emulate women without having to 'pass'. I think that's the healthier option as it removes this pressure on you to be something that, as Davina explained with Adam's apples etc, is sort of impossible. If society became accustomed to men doing the 'drag' thing without the association with being gay, wouldn't that be better? I think I'd feel better knowing it was a man next to me and knowing his motives than finding out half way through touching up my make up in the women's toilets. I'm glad you wouldn't use our bathrooms, Davina. It seems many think they should be able to. The reasoning is always 'if I use the men's room while crossdressed I'll be beaten to a pulp by other men'.

The irony is, they're acknowledging men are a physical threat to female presenting humans, and then insisting that females allow men into their private spaces. All I can say to that is, WTF?! Wearing a frock and wig doesn't entitle a man into our bathrooms. I'll put that out there now. Admittedly, I haven't really cared or noticed when a crossdresser has used a toilet next to mine, but now I know many of them identity fully as men, I actually find it rude and even misogynistic. Some men really don't want women having anything of their own, do they.

Anyway, that's off topic. Back to the embarrassing crossdresser - unless he's in McDonalds in fetish gear at midday, I think the goal for those desperate to go public is to educate said public WHY they're out and about and why they're dressed as they are. A sexually motivated crossdresser won't be welcome in most polite company and certainly not around children! A gender motivated crossdresser shouldn't have to pass, but he also shouldn't be revealing skin at every angle and blinding old ladies with the shine of his thigh high stockings! I guess dress as you like, appropriate for the occasion. That's all women do.

Would I point and stare at the bearded guy with oompaloopa make up? No. Most people wouldn't over the age of 16 (teenage girls will be your worst nightmare, for the record), but I wouldn't necessarily feel safe in his presence as I'd wonder if he wasn't a bit nuts, and I'd probably feel a little sorry for him. If that's what he wants, more power to him. If you want to go about life without harassment, dress for the occasion!

That's my two cents. :)

By: Davina

Subject: Re: Aesthetics - A man in a dress

When you notice a crossdresser in public is it the fact of how he is dressed that makes him stand out?

I've seen some T girls out one in Torquay on holiday who looked dreadful orange foundation like an umpalumpa, weirdly dressed I know this sounds terrible but my kids were asking is that a man!! Whys he dressed like that?

Another in a Supermarket came behind me and my wife and we heard a gruff voice say excuse me to get past and what we saw was a shock a 6'6'' guy with broad shoulders stubble in a dress and heels.

I guess its hats off to people brave enough to be out dressed but it does us no favours as it gives people a perception.

On the other hand I'm sure we have mistaken some women for men.. My wife refers to one lady as "The Manly Woman" who we see about from time to time.

There are probably some T girls who do go unnoticed but adams apples (I don't seem to have one I must do but you cant see it or even feel it) broad shoulders, large hands and feet... usually a give away oh and the way they walk.. My wife has told me I need to walk more feminine if I'm going to be dressed lol.

Is it the fact that his clothes just don't suit him or are something a 'real' woman wouldn't normally wear in that setting?

Some times yes and sometimes no - looking at photos of Tgirls profiles in TV chix some are quite fashionable myself included and some are feshistic and some just don't dress their age but does that matter in the privacy of their own home as we sometimes see some women dressed younger than they are.

Is it our sensibility to style and fitting in that is offended as opposed to the fact that it is a man in women's clothing?

Some men in womens clothing you wouldn't have a clue. I'm pretty confident in the right clothing makeup and wig I woulndt turn a head and have someone say that's a man ... in the right light and at the right distance lol.. WE all come in all shapes and sizes

How androgynous can someone be before they are classed a crossdresser?

Now androgeny and crossdressing is something I've not looked into. Would an androgenous person who is purposely androgenous class himself or herself as a crossdresser? probably not.

Women clothes are designed and cut to be worn by women so they don't always look 'right' on men.

Again some do some don't my shoulders are probably the dead give away..

If a man was wearing a well fitted dress that flattered him and didn't make him stand out from the crowd would that be more acceptable?

I would think no one would notice and so it wouldn't matter until said person wanted to use the toilet and oops which one to use... the gents of course I'd not dream of using the ladies even if it outed me.

A lot of crossdressers spend of lot of time worrying about 'passing'.

I don't worry about it I just strive to look as good as a woman as possible as passable as possible its part of the fun for me and if I haven't done my makeup so well and don't look as good as I think I can look I start again if I have the time - annoying then when you get it spot on and think wow I look a bit of alright lol then for whatever reasons you have to get changed back quickly and waste all the makeup..

They try and get the look right and maybe in some cases they do and nobody actually notices they are a man. The 'Is that a man or not question'.

Yes some pull it off very well

It's just a thought but is it the fact some crossdressers actually look crap as a woman that makes crossdressing something to be ridiculed and scorned upon?

I think the answer is YES it gives people the perception that crossdressing is weird and men look crap as women .. my wife was a bit shocked to find I didn't look like a clown my makeup was done pretty well and I wasn't dressed like a prize tart when she made that leap of faith and ventured upstairs to face "Davina"