I thought I'd post my thoughts on the trans spectrum following Davina's comments. The struggle I have with the trans spectrum is that if you assume it starts at men in lingerie and ends with trans women then the assumption is that where ever you fall on the spectrum there is always a chance that you can move up the spectrum which I think is what most wives fear. They fear that the eventual destination is transition.
A man being aroused wearing lingerie is very different to a trans woman suffering from gender dysphoria so why would they be on the same spectrum. It's the butter and margarine comparison I've used before - they both look the same, do the same job but have very different ingredients.
There is no reason that somebody can't feel 100% male (gender identity) but want to dress as a woman from time to time (gender expression). Equally somebody might identify 100% as female but spend 80% of their time as male with the eventual wish to transition. To me those are two entirely different motivations and belong on different spectrums although they will both crossdress. Add into the mix men who want to dress as a woman purely for fetish reason then you have another dimension.
I believe that gender expression is flexible. You can express as 100% male, 100% female or somewhere in between. You may wake up 100% male (PJs and stubble, hair all over the place) but then shower, shave, slip on some lingerie and a dress and end up 80% female. Then decide to go the full works and put on make up and a wig (100% female in expression). Two hours later and its all off and your back to 100% male. All the time your gender identity has remained 100% male. Somebody like that is never going to want to transition so where do they fit on a trans spectrum?
I have struggled to understand gender identity. I don't think of myself as having a male or female gender, I just think of myself as me. I might have personality traits which are considered feminine and others masculine but they do not decide my gender identity, they put reflect the person I am. I've never experienced feeling being born in the wrong body so it is difficult for me to understand how somebody might feel who has gender dysphoria.
I am not a fetish dresser. I do not dress just to get off on it. It may have started like that as a teenage boy but as time has gone on my reasons for dressing have changed. For some men it has always been about fetish and remains so. There are also crossdressers who dress in a particular way or want to act out particular roles. How do they sit on the trans spectrum?
I just think that a trans spectrum is too simplistic and two dimensional when our reasons for crossdressing can be a mix of all the different types and fluctuate and change over the period of an hour or so. Do we swing up and down the spectrum?
Esme said she thought I may be further up the trans spectrum than Davina. But Davina tends to go full on when she dresses whereas I might not bother with make up, wig and even sport some stubble. I don't identify as a woman and 'Katie' is not separate part of me. I think that just illustrates that we all have different opinions and trying to fit square pegs in round holes to try and understand something as complicated as crossdressing just doesn't work. It may be convenient to have a spectrum but in reality it doesn't work for me.
As I said before I prefer to look on it as something that is fluid and may change.
How does everyone else understand the Trans spectrum? Do they disagree with me? How would they explain where some one sits on the spectrum?
Katie x
Great to get another perspective but I've found some further to the right on the trans spectrum grown in us here Crossdressers who do this more for relaxation and fun as for some it's a lot more serious but happy to.hear others views.
I've posted the question about how transgender people on my Facebook friends list see the trans spectrum, I'm still in conversation with a transgender girl so as soon as i have enough perspective on it I'll post my findings.
Cat
I think the Crossdresser on the spectrum the widest part and also think the majority in this band on the overall spectrum are happy to stay there moving along left and right as the urge takes us, experimenting and looking at the next step left or right such as going out dressed (I've ticked that box) then moving back to the left dressing at Home again.
I think tomorrow will be my first day working at Home as Davina in 2019.
I may set up an "Add here if you've crossdressed" post so we can see how often we dress as a post for 2019 to run through the year.
OK. Hands up. You're all right. A crossdresser can become a trans woman.
As is my want I will alway challenge my opinion and do research to the contrary. I found a very interesting blog by a trans woman which I will share later.
There are still two types of trans woman (early and late). The early is the trans kids who know from and early age that the do not fit with the gender they were assigned at birth and the crossdresser who may transition in later life.
Katie x
Furrys? Butter and marg?
Transvestite Katie, falls in the same area as a Transexual? Can a Transvestite become a Transexual?
Other fetish and spread need not apply as it's not comparable to men dressing as women that's something special.. not dressing as animals or comparing butter and marg ..
This is all about levels of acceptance by society? A trans spectrum wives on here seem happy with. Levels of dressing and levels of trans?
Why knock the trans spectrum between knickers wearer and Transexual it's a long journey across it from one end to the other noting some people late in life come to realisation they may be born in the wrong body, some after crossdressing but doesn't mean crossdresser will want to progress to Transexual but some can or do so is on the same spectrum.
It seems that wives are happy accepting the trans spectrum and where husbands are on it?
Hannah (wife)
I'm not so sure as I've read a lot about transitioning and not all start off with the feeling of born in the wrong body.
I read one sad story of a crossdresser who lost his wife and would dress in her clothes and ended up transitioning.
But that aside you asked about my husband and he's no intention of moving out of the crossdresser part of the trans spectrum and we're happy where we are on the scale and being open about it together and having experienced makeovers together, popping out in public together, evenings in together and sex with him dressed for him eutopia for me happy and loyal husband both happy with our crossdressing fun.
Still think the spectrum is knocked wearer to TS and that you can join the trans spectrum anywhere along the line.
Emma (wife)
I don't believe you can progress from wearing knicker to transitioning as a trans woman unless you identify your gender as female.
Sometimes these feelings maybe suppressed for years but nobody would choose to transition unless they had those overriding feelings.
Katie x
Could you start off trying on knickers and progress to becoming transexual?
If the answer is yes then it's part of the trans spectrum.
I've chatted with lots of t girls who.were dressing and progressed and loads who were dressing and still dressing to the same extent.
There are lots who identify as women or born the wrong sex but there are also those who travel through the trans spectrum left to right and some who stay mid range, some who stay on the far left just in lingerie.. Because it's a wide and varied spectrum it encompasses everything trans and as Hannah added i would perceive the crisscrossed part to be the longest part of the trans spectrum with multiple reasons, fetish, fun, relaxation, ssexualitie s etcetc but within the crisscrossing range comes the more serious crisscrossed bordering on the next label transvestite perceived more towards a fuller time crossdressing..
Not everyone that transitions has the early realisation and can progress along the spectrum or stay within a range on the spectrum and I think this site easier with wives and with tgirl s to k now where you are when trying to understand why we dress and also for partners to know where it will end up.
Davina
The FURRY Spectrum
OK. You start off with a pair of cat ears for a party. You think you look cute and so next time you add some whiskers. You realise you enjoy dressing as a cat so buy yourself a tail. Still not happy you progress to a cat costume. Fake fur but it turns you on. You join a furry chatroom to talk with other furries. Not happy with how realistic you look you decide to splash out on a mask and real fur costume. Now you look the business but are bored dressing as a cat at home. You want to go out and meet other cats and maybe dogs!. You go to an event. It is really exciting to be with the people of the same interest. You meet a really cool cat. You get along and end up in bed. You're now a furry sexual! Not happy with being a cat part time you decide to dress as 'tiddles' more and more often. It have now got to the stage that you don't feel human at all, you identify as being a cat. You live on a diet of Felix and milk. You go to the vets and ask them to make you into a cat.
I know it's a bit stupid and flippant but until the identity bit it could be the journey of a crossdresser. Tiddles didn't start his journey identifying as a cat. He got hooked on it.
A trans woman doesn't start her journey trying on a pair of knickers. She has always identified as a woman and the clothes are only there to demonstrate to the world how she feels internally. Just look at the programmes on Trans Kids. They all know internally that something isn't right, that they are not comfortable being the sex they have been assigned.
I don't feel like I'm in the wrong body so won't transition.I won't take hormones, I want to be able to still function as a man.
That is why I'd argue that being a trans woman is not the far end of the spectrum it is on it's own spectrum.
Katie x
My husband is on the trans spectrum too as a crossdresser and to answer the question on transition no he won't he doesn't Do it as he's transsexual he's a crossdresser and it's a fun fetish for him he can just relax or we can have sexy fun with it.
The crossdressing part of this spectrum I imagine is the longest part of the spectrum with lots of reasons why people do it and some progress to living as women or dress at least full time the majority probably don't and becoming women doesn't cross their mind.
But I think the guy trying on knickers one end and a trans woman the other end I don't lik e that term as I expect they would prefer to be called women .. same trans spectrum you could say the far right transsexual becomes a woman and drops off the end but no reason you can assume everyone progresses along the trans spectrum to the end like everything you fall where you fall and are comfortable.
Hannah (wife) typed in discussion with him
So Emma, do you believe your husband could end up transitioning? If he's on the Trans spectrum then as a continuum he could end up transitioning. By conflating gender identity and gender expression into one spectrum you end up with that probability. Putting crossdressers who dress as a means of gender expression and trans women who's gender identity is female you are mixing two different concepts that only have wearing female clothing in common. I think separating them is less fearful for wives and partners.
Katie x
A good debate you two but for me it's easier to accept that there is a trans spectrum left to right and see where my husband sits comfortably with me on it.
Yes he does go up and down it a bit within the crossdresser portion and yes he's moved left to right within the crossdresser portion but not into the full transvestite or transsexual part of the spectrum far from it.
Emma (wife)
Hi Davina
I think the danger is that the spectrum can also be considered a continuum (something that changes in character gradually or in very slight stages without any clear dividing points). The Trans spectrum above appears to show gradual increments towards transition. You've gradually moved along this spectrum so the fear has got to be that you continue on this journey.
All I'm saying is that you have a gender expression spectrum and gender identity spectrum. There maybe some overlap but essentially if you are on the gender expression spectrum then you will not transition unless you hop over to the gender identity spectrum. To live as a woman full time you'd be matching your gender expression to your gender identity which would need to be 100% female otherwise you'd have the same conflicts we do as men wanting to dress as women but in reverse.
The link you sent through talking about the gender spectrum and definitions does not have 'crossdresser' or 'transvestite' included in the definitions but does have two scales for gender expression and gender identity which mirrors the ways of expressing gender and sexuality on the gender bread person v4 https://www.genderbread.org/resource/genderbread-person-v4-0
The guy who devised the gender bread person used to run with a spectrum but found it didn't;'t really describe hw it actually worked in practice.
If you look on margarine as a crossdresser and a trans woman as butter. Both will wear women's clothes but for completely different reasons. A crossdresser will wear the clothes because of the benefits derived from it. A trans woman will wear the clothes because she identifies as a woman so what else would she wear! That is why I think that they do not sit on the same spectrum.
Trans* is a catch all phrase which cover a lot of different types of people. Dressing as a woman I change my gender from male to female (gender expression) hence transgender. TVChix give a whole multitude of definitions and options. I did not use pre or post op as I do not identify as a woman and have no dysphoria.
The trans spectrum has no way of coping with people born intersex which is why I feel that it one dimensional. It just goes backwards and forwards along a continuum when really you need to build blocks to get to the heart of the matter. it is a little harder to explain but I think it is less fearful when it is understood.
Katie x
In explaining Crossdressing especially to a wife I think it is easy to explain a Trans spectrum and explain where at that given time you are on the spectrum.
For example when I told Esme I was initially just trying clothing on which was where I was, then her asking to make me up introduced me to makeup and I moved up a step to the right wanting to try makeup again… then another step to the right getting a wig and wanting to look as convincing as possible and only dress if I could wear the wig and makeup as well as clothes where I stayed at for a long time … then I chatted to someone on skype and they could see me as Davina (Emma) so up a notch to the point Esme and myself went out in public as “Girls” together years after telling her I was a crossdresser and that’s where I rest on the trans spectrum and don’t intend going further right with the majority of the time moving back left as opportunity to go out dressed may be once per year so you can slide up and down the spectrum over time but nothing to worry about.
If you’d told me when I was in my 20s that in 2018 I would go out in public fully dressed as a woman I’d be rolling about the floor laughing at you but I did. I’ve never had any intention of dressing full time or wanting to transition so I’m just right of centre if a Crossdresser is centre and a transexual living full time as a woman is far over to the right of the sliding scale and Transexual Far right.
So yep as the diagram I’ve put together below I think it is as simplistic as far left men in lingerie and ends with TS women so yep the assumption is that where ever you fall on the spectrum there is always a chance that you can move up the spectrum.
Explaining this to a wife and where you feel you fall and your end game should stay any fear by a wife as their main fear is you want to live as a woman.
By discussing that there is a trans spectrum and you never ever intend to reach destination transition it puts a wifes mind at ease. Esme? Emma? Hannah?
A man being aroused wearing lingerie is very different to a trans woman suffering from gender dysphoria correct.
So why would they be on the same spectrum? Because they are as I was that man aroused by wearing Lingerie once and now I’m further to the right unless you want to completely move crossdressing from the same Trans spectrum as a TS woman then you break your own “We’re all Trans” rule as the guy dressing in lingerie is Trans too by definition of Lingerie being female attire.
Butter and margarine fall on the same spread spectrum.. there’s your comparison both can be spread on bread.
“There is no reason that somebody can't feel 100% male (gender identity) but want to dress as a woman from time to time (gender expression). Equally somebody might identify 100% as female but spend 80% of their time as male with the eventual wish to transition. To me those are two entirely different motivations and belong on different spectrums although they will both crossdress. Add into the mix men who want to dress as a woman purely for fetish reason then you have another dimension”
All that is on a trans spectrum at some point as my diagram shows many reasons but all Trans.
If you follow your example and express as 100% male you’re not on the trans spectrum, 100% female you’re either female or have transitioned or somewhere in between within the spectrum.
You may wake up 100% male (PJs and stubble, hair all over the place) but then shower, shave, slip on some lingerie and a dress and end up 80% female. Then decide to go the full works and put on make up and a wig (100% female in expression). Two hours later and its all off and your back to 100% male. All the time your gender identity has remained 100% male. Somebody like that (Like me you mean as you’ve just described me) is never going to want to transition so where do they fit on a trans spectrum?
Because they are a crossdresser by definition and fit right in the middle of the Trans spectrum.
I have a male gender 100% so my gender identity is simple to me the fact I crossdress doesnt change this I’m 100% a man. I dont feel I'm in the wrong body or have any dysphoria.
The fetish dresser is on the Trans spectrum. There’s been a lot of research in the Trans spectrum and lots of definitions have come from it. https://www.unomaha.edu/student-life/inclusion/gender-and-sexuality-resource-center/lgbtqia-resources/queer-trans-spectrum-definitions.php
Crossdressers who dress in a particular way or want to act out particular roles. How do they sit on the trans spectrum?
They do if they are men dressed as shoolgirls or business women or whatever theyre on the trans spectrum.
There is nothing simplistic about the Trans spectrum and it is multi dimensional but it is the simplest way to show someone where you are as someone involved with the word Trans.
Yes we can swing up and down the spectrum certain amounts to the point some people actually stop and exit the trans spectrum.
Esme saying you may be further up the trans spectrum than me (“Davina”) is based on you changing your tvchix to Trans as opposed to mine saying I’m a crossdresser. In terms of myself I have fun with it trying to look convincing is part of the fun for me but you as Katie dressing sometimes with stubble etc could be either side of me on the spectrum.. it was turning your profile the orange trans that led Esme to that conclusion and reading some of your posts compared to mine.
This is a subject i have trouble with as well..
I'll have a think about this and give you my position, but very briefly i see crossdressers and transgender people as completely different although they May start out the same.
And for me, over the past year or so, I've changed as a CD and moved along the scale.
Cat xx