By: Katie
Subject: What society expects from men
I was reading an interesting article and this section stood out
'A man is expected to be a breadwinner with a stable job, earning enough to support a family in an ideal of upwards mobility that no longer really exists for most of us. He is expected to present as masculine in appearance, taste, and habits. He is expected to be confident, outgoing and sociable, and to know how to fight. A man is socialised to desire a specific type of woman, to marry, to father children, and to provide them with a better life and prospects than he himself has enjoyed. He is expected to be entirely heterosexual, and entirely monogamous. And, although society grants him far more leeway in regards to sexuality than it does a woman, a man is expected to be virile, sexually active, and uncomplicated in his tastes. He is allowed to penetrate, but not to be penetrated; to control, but not to surrender; to enjoy the grace, sensuality, and sex appeal of a woman, but never to wish to express these traits himself.'
The article http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/if-we-liberate-men-s-sexuality-war-against-women-can-end argues that by removing societies expectations on men it will liberate them and in turn help women to be treated as equals.
It is interesting that the article starts off talking about men who visit a dominatrix 'When I tell a man to strip his clothes off, I am also taking the weight of social expectations from him; and when our time together is finished, he puts his clothes on, piece by piece, and takes that weight onto his shoulders again.'
Read the article and let me know what you think.
By: Davina
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Men in makeup
Brilliant Sindy
The PC world doe little for the straight man we're told what we cant say and cant do constantly - Oh you cant say black its racist, you cant call a woman that its sexist, you cant say that about that man its homophobic and you cant wear a dress as it belongs to women yet straight men can be ridiculed and called whatever you like we shrug our shoulders and get on with it.
The PC world - Maybe we fit in by being Crossdressers but then we get omg you crossdress are you gay, are you a pervert whats wrong with you
We cant win lol
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Men in makeup
That's an interesting point, Katie - gay men can get away with a lot more than straight men. This might also answer the question of why most crossdressers are straight guys. You're definitely living in the smallest box, and in a way these young fashionista men are helping widen it a little.
The more I read here the more I'm actually glad I'm not a straight guy, despite this innate feeling you have more privilege than the rest of us. You're also living a very boxed in life.
Come to think of it, I'd probably be a crossdresser if I was, lol!
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Re: Men in makeup
I think that sometimes fashion tries to push boundaries and the young men and the industry that is backing them maybe have to different objects.
The young men are pushing against the restrictions of society and saying why can't men wear make up to be attractive. As you say the majority maybe gay but to some degree its easier for them to be at the vanguard for this as the normal response from a straight person is 'that's a bit gay' to which they can answer 'I am - get over it'. There is still a stigma for a straight man to be called gay so the risk is higher.
For the companies it's opening up new markets - maybe a bit cynical but if they can sell more eyeliner and mascara they'll go for it. It's also a mater of image - to be seen as edgy and unconventional may help sales mainmast their target market.
If there were no dress rules then there would be no crossdressers. But all the time there is a distinction between masculine and feminine then there will always be crossdressers. Yes it is about more than fashion, it is a love of femininity and what it stand for and again in the individuals idealised way so you get the Grayson Perry types.
I just think the more people who break out the confines of the boxes we're put in then the better for everyone.
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Men in makeup
Gosh this is a hard one. I actually think I'm with Davina on this one as yes, society is becoming more accepting, but I'm not really seeing any crossdressing in these videos. These are men, and largely gay men, who are making a fashion statement per say. Their motives are very different. Their motives are actually awesome and run the lines of feminism for women and what I've been saying men should fight for. Men should be allowed to look pretty or feminine without being called nasty names, or even transgender!
Crossdressing strikes me as a different beast. Though, I do often wonder whether it would exist if men could present as they wanted without social repercussions. The million dollar question. Personally, and this is only my opinion, I think a man who crossdresses carries an almost envy/awe of women around with him so if all women suddenly wore purple wigs, the croskdresser would desperately want the purple wig. That's only opinion. But everything I've read suggests this is more than just a fashion statement.
That said, these young guys are definitely helping with public acceptance of feminine attired men, but broad social understanding of actual crossdressing may get worse as the two are not really related.
Not sure any of this made sense!! x
By: Davina
Subject: Re: Men in makeup
Yep attitudes are changing
But I still don't think society gets crossdressing
By: Katie
Subject: Men in makeup
Ok. following on from my thread about 'what society expects from men' do you think that attitudes amongst the young are changing? Is this a result of social media and the internet where you are free to express themselves and find like minded people.
I just stubbled upon this article https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2017/jan/06/beauty-boy-maybelline-names-youtube-sensation-manny-gutierrez-as-first-male-ambassador which is about top makeup brands adopting young men as ambassadors to their brands. It seems that the power of instgram and youtube have made stars out of these young men.
I'm sure they'll get plenty of negative comments from trolls but is it a sign that society is wiling to be more open about our differences and not putting us all in small boxes.
Obviously youth helps a lot and I can't imagine them having a 50 year old crossdressers as an ambassador lol.
I also mentioned Joseph Harwood in a reply to Davina. Check him out here https://www.youtube.com/user/jhmemoires
By: Davina
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What society expects from men
Men don't tend to confide in one another much about personal things as men tend to take the mick.
Sometimes we'll have a winge or moan to on another but I find two ways to unwind:
There's crossdressing
Harmless, fun, transformation, makeup, lingerie, wig, hosiery, heels and relaxation and the feeling sexy.
Then there's contact sport
More destressing by letting out energy and anger or as yoda may put it the dark side win at all cost, go in hard contact kick that ball, score that try.
The latter as I'm now early 40s I don't do as much but so far in 2017 have dressed twice working from home and its been nice and I've been relaxed.
The third way is a break from work and time with the wife and kids.. Getting into walking and going up mountains but need the family to get into it too and not moan its too far lol walkings good for you
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: What society expects from men
From my experience men don't have open and frank discussions with their friends. It's all about sport and being a bloke.
Men tend to bottle things up and hide their emotions because that is what expected of them. You need to be the rock in the marriage, the dependable one, the provider and showing any weakness means you aren't fulfilling your duty as a man.
It's no wonder so many young men commit suicide when it can seem the only way out of the situation. I seems that it is the easier option than actually facing up to the fact you have failed to live up to societies expectation of a man.
So even though crossdressing means that you have failed in one of societies expectations of a man you have found a release value for all that pent up stress.
Are men meant to be monogamous? In nature the males tend to impregnate as many females as possible and being the alpha male in the group allows that privilege - think lions, gorillas etc. Society has two polar views. It encourages the family unit and being monogamous but there is also a pressure on young men to be as promiscuous as possible. If young men are being instructed to go out and 'sow their wild oats' what pressure does that put on young women?
I think that the notion that the more women you sleep with the more of a man you are should be shown to be wrong in a modern society where men and women should be treated as equals. It would be better to educate people about having proper relationships and respect for each other.
I know that some women are a promiscuous as men but I also think that maybe that is an expectation created by men that they feel they must fulfil.
It can get all very complicated but all the time society has the view of what a man should be then these pressures will exist.
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Re: What society expects from men
Yoga? Or reality shows? lol. Neither are my choice of stress relief but I know plenty of smart, busy women who indulge both. Personally, I think women have each other and I unstress (is that a word?) by catching up with a friend and talking things over. Works a charm. Do men do this with their friends?
Anyway that was an interesting article. I had two thoughts hit me - the first was, why is men's sexuality so complicated in the first place? Second was I totally agree a shift needs to be made to accommodate this reality as whether we ask the question or not, male sexuality clearly is a different thing to female, so rather than try and change men, we need to somehow accept this. I tell you, most women I know would still be a bit shocked to hear of the kinks out there. I've had enough intimate discussions with other women to know that most are not sexually adventurous. It's a means to an end, most days, to keep hubby happy. Kink is a no go zone!
So maybe that's the other reality that needs addressing - women usually don't have the same sexual drive as men so how do you ever truly find compatibility and fulfilment? I hate to say it, as being married makes it a sad thought, but maybe male sexuality wasn't ever meant for monagamy? It seems like women need sex until they have the kids and then they need supportive relationships more than sexual. They need the proverbial village to help them raise the kids. But the village has gone, and we're all putting so much weight on our partners to fulfil the roles of many people it's no wonder we're all disconnected and stressed! If I didn't have my female friends to let off steam with, I do believe my marriage would implode. Yet, we really could do with that village.
Just my thoughts. But something does need to change and my children are being taught it's better to cry and feel things than not. Boys and girls are equally allowed to show emotions in my house. I plan on being very open about all sexualities as well, including kink. I might have been raised more prudish and have struggled with all this, but I don't want that for my kids.
Here's hoping things change for men, and women, one day soon.
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Re: What society expects from men
It's ingrained into all of us as to what society expects a man to be. If you fall down in any category then we lose some of our masculinity.
It's no wonder that suicide rates amongst 20-49 year old men is the biggest killer in the UK when there is so much pressure to comply with an ideal. So much of men's self-esteem is connected to work and status that the pressure can be too much for some people. Real men don't cry or show any emotions we just bottle it all up inside.
I've seen it written that 'crossdressing saved my life' and in someways you can understand that the chance to get away from the expectations can be a great relief. There are other ways of letting off steam but I've not found one that works better for me.
As you say we're probably far nicer after we've dressed and can still comply with the majority of the requirements even though they probably belong in the 1950s!
It's just shame that women don't have an equivalent of crossdressing as I'm sure they'd benefit from stepping out of their own world for a short time. Unless of course they do and I just don't know about it!
By: Davina
Subject: Re: What society expects from men
I'll read the article later but that statement of what a man is is more or less ingrained in women to an extent so that's what they are taught to expect from a man,.
Well get this
Today I got up decided to work from home, set up my laptop etc started work then popped the kids to school then ran a bath whilst popping up to the attic to retrieve a bad.
Back to work until bath ready and in and a shave and wash then dry and moisturise my face slipped into an all in one button under the crotch ( I need to define this bit of Lingerie what's it called?), insert fake DDs, then put on a dress and sliped stockings up my loooong legs and stepped into 5 inch high heels.
Next foundation, powder, blusher, lipstick and gloss, then eyeshadow going for smokey eye look with some black added then mascara and long blonde hair brushed into place then sat down and worked all day catching up with emails and other work.
The phone went several times and my usual alpha male self sorted out the conversation and problems, then my wife was home for lunch and made us something to eat before going back to work then it was 14:30 time to undress quick bath remove trace of makeup.. joggers and hoodie back on pick kids up from school at 1515 and now sat her in drab man clothes finishing off a report..
Was far nicer in a dress... yet despite my activity today I'm still an alpha male and comply with a lot of the above ..