Wow - Another wifes perspective this is great - watch then read my comments..

Heidi Phox and Wife interview - With Davinas notes 

https://youtu.be/2JBlsnCjEWA?si=DJtx6CWXrjv6sSA9

I linked a blog to a My Girl Life podcast which interviewed Heidi Phox (Quite a famous T-girl) and her lovely accepting wife Nikki.

Heidi Fox is a bit of an inspiration to a lot t-girls in the community brave enough to share a lot of her dressing journey publicly through her website and YouTube channel. My comments are added in bold / red.

Nikki and Heidi have been married for 30 years, big traditional wedding they met in a country bar country dancing. Heidi was into Sports like most men but when he/she moved to San Diego used Country dancing as a way to meet people - I suppose its a good way to meet a woman line dancing as in my experience in the UK there’s a lot of women who line dance and when I’ve been to Country music shows its probably 98% women in short denim skirts, tanned legs and heeled cowboy boots line dancing the 2% men must be Genius’s finding this niche place to meet women lol. 

Well done Heidi Nikki is a fab catch as the Country Bar lol.

Davina - I’ve been with my wife married almost 25 years together 30 years so similar. I was very masculine, sporty played a lot of sport and like Heidi have this pull towards crossdressing. I’m no dancer though.. Maybe Davina is who knows, Back to the interview

They’d been engaged for 11 months and he came home one day and he gave Nikki a letter and then walked straight to their bedroom and closed the door and Nikki thought "Oh my heavens is he leaving me?”

She read the letter he confided in Nikki that at times in his life he had had this urge to dress in women's clothes but it was something he didn’t do anymore but he felt it was only right to tell Nikki before they got married. 

Davina - Let me interject here as some will say Heidi did the right thing here in letting Nikki know about her dressing before they got married although it was a little misleading as we hear in the pod cast as it hadn’t stopped completely - But it’s easier said than done as its a risk.

Nikki thought he was breaking up with her and Heidi thought Nikki would call off the wedding so why risk telling Nikki something that he’s stopped doing - Relating this to me and my wife - I didn’t tell my wife that I was a crossdresser when we were dating or when we were engaged.

Why didn’t I tell my wife? - Because it was really occasional, it even stopped to an extent as we were always together, she was in heels, tights, short shirts, sex life was pretty good, her red lips everything i’d dressed to compensate not having access to in a girlfriend i had and my crossdressing more or less stopped and prior to D- Day which I’ll elaborate on later in this longer blog my crossdressing was trying on lingerie, stockings heels if they fit nothing more - I wasn’t at this time dating, engaged even early marriage presenting as a woman like i do now so i felt no need to tell my wife / girlfriend that I was a crossdresser as it was pretty insignificant back then.

Back to the interview

Nikki went into the bedroom and he was sitting on the bed so nervous And Nikkis response to the letter was “We all do crazy things in our lives So I don't think that's its an issue”

Did Nikki think well if you're not doing it why did you even tell me?

Nikkis response to this is he’s always been someone that’s very honest has a lot of integrity and so I think that meant a lot to him going into the marriage even if he thought I'm never going to do this again he felt like it was only right to let me know this was something he did

Davina - Again I get this, Heidi put her cards on the table it’s not easy coming out as a crossdresser so high five for doing it but saying he doesn’t do it any more was a little misleading (Maybe at the time testing the water with Nikki, she doesn’t elaborate or maybe a period in time struggling with the guilt of being a t-girl / crossdresser and thinking of trying to stop for the sake of the relationship, fed up of hiding it but it’s so hard to stop being a Crossdresser) - Its could have led to them splitting up but didn’t maybe as it was “something he used to do” not a worry for Nikki as we’ll see in a few mins. Relating to me and my wife again on this my Crossdressinf was so few and far between i didn’t feel it worth telling my Girlfriend, fiance or even wife when married that I was a crossdresser as it wasn’t a frequent enough occurrence / hobby at the time and I even thought it may go away.. Maybe Heidi thought similar that it was going away as she had Nikki and thought she’d tell her this was something she did in the past thinking it would go away - maybe a future interview we’ll learn more but for me it highlights why i didn't tell my GF / Fiance / Wife as it wasnt what it is now - and it may well have stopped. Back to the Interview.

Nikki like the openness and thinks it made it easier for them throughout their relationship even when it didn't come to Heidi / crossdressing stuff a safe place in their relationship with no judgment. 

Sometimes it's easier to explain things in writing and then talk about it afterwards. Easier to crystallize thoughts and phrase things in a way that doesn't accidentally give the wrong impression.

Davina - After my accidental coming out as a Crossdresser “D-Day” 

Let me explain D-Day - It was the day my wife dressed me up and put makeup on me and the first time i saw myself as “Davina” fully made up presenting as a woman - I call this D-Day as this caused a step change in my crossdressing from just trying things on to makeup and trying to look like a woman / present as a woman.. 

Anyway following this i wrote my wife a letter warts and all about how i used to wear my mothers things etc to where we were now post her dressing me up.. To me it wasn’t the big deal as it was sporadic, but i was admitting i was crossdressing - To my wife reading the letter came “Are you Gay, Do you want to be a woman, is this my fault” which I’ve blogged about - Me dressing a few times per year just trying things on her mind probably racing ‘OMG every time i turn my back hes in my lingerie’ - Wasn’t the case but the basis of my crossdressing was laid down and read in writing and we discussed each part of th letter - I wish I still had that letter to recall what and how i wrote it. Back to the interview.

Heidi admitted she gave the wrong impression saying it was something she used to do but at the time she thought It was done with so I guess contemplating happy with the relationship with Nikki and the need to crossdress diminished.

Davina - I’ve been here dating, sex life, my wife in tights, heels, miniskirts, perfume, red lips etc etc i didn’t dress for a period of time.. Crossdressing wasn’t as necessary for me and my mental health than it is now.

What was Nikkis initial thoughts or feelings? 

Some initially are ok with crossdressing but given more time to contemplate new things learnt about crossdressing sometimes fears creep in,

Because it was written as something in the past Nikki didn't really spend too much time pondering it.. Early 20s we all do crazy things in our early life just one more crazy thing.. That was more than 30 years ago and there wasn't as much discussion about crossdressing or the trans community or the queer community and so Nikkis knowledge was so small - it's like something crazy college guys do .. Nikki dont have anything to really gauge it against so it was out of Nikkis head.

It didn’t come up again until after their son was born that there was more of a need to learn more about crossdressing. It was a couple years later when Heidi told Nikki he might want to crossdress again.

Davina - Different to us as I was dressing my wife was shocked. 

That's when things really started going down that road of needing to educate themselves

Nikki realized this isn't going away.

Was there anyone Nikki could confide in or seek advice from?

Nikki states there was no one, nowhere she could turn to

Pre internet so the library was visited to try to research what she could figure and make sense of all this. 

There wasn't a lot of books on the subject and no internet just psychological diagnosis that it’s a mental disorder. 

Nikki needed something to reassure her that this was okay and wasn't getting that through books and had no one else to turn to because to some extent Heidi was closeted too she didn't have a community at that time to discuss crossdressing with either.

Davina my wife had the internet but only found the negative agony aunts and articles relating sex chage and sexuality so not helpful. I did wonder if she’d confided in anyone, a friend, her mum or sister but no kept it to herself for 20+ years which can’t be easy.

Nikki felt like she was protecting Heidis secret not telling anybody so really felt alone with this secret and searching for something to make it okay or find out is this something that's not okay and she should be concerned - Nikki didn't think it was not okay some of her concern came when Bruce Jenner / Caitlyn Jenner decided to transition that made her very nervous because when it was just something her spouse did on the part-time but then kept his male life she was okay but would her spouse decide in her that she wanted to transition - She wasn't sure that was something she could handle 

Nikki brought it up a couple of times needing Heidi to reassure her that that wasn't where she saw this going

Davina - My wifes number one fear is my presenting as Davina would be more and more id want to go out as Davina more and people would find out.. I’m sure its crossed her mind i might want to be a woman. I don’t want to be full time.

Heidi says this was a conversation that they’ve had for 20 years ongoing.

Like every once in a while they’d touch base and communicate about crossdressing and fears. Regular discussions about Nikkis comfort zone and where we saw this going. There was always a nervousness on her part that someday Heidi would want to go full-time and there was always nervousness on Heidis part that someday Nikki would be like ‘I tried it as long as I could and I can't do it anymore’

Davina we sporadically have conversations if i start them but lately its felt like my wifes avoiding talking about Davina. I need to talk sometimes, to reassure or just make light of my crossdressing.

They don't think the nervousness will ever go away but over the years through experience those fears never happened pretty soon you're creating a pattern and it's unlikely it's going to be broken.

Davina i agree its a nervous chat about dressing never as straightforward as it could be both afraid to upset one another i think.

But it does happen - people like Bruce Jenner transitioned late in life so there's examples of it not working out.

Everybody's on their journey and there's no judgment for Caitlyn to choose to transition. Heidi says that's not where she’s going with this but Nikki needs to know within their relationship if that's where he felt like he was going to end up going to want to be Heidi full-time.. As much as Nikki loves him and wants happiness for him she would support him but wasn’t  sure that that was the journey She could take with with him.

Davina - My wife would be the same end of the ride if I was to become Davina full time so a good job that that’s not in my life plan.

Did they discuss gender dysphoria as some people transition to to to run away from their boy life but little do they know they're going to jump from the frying pan into the fire because it's no easy thing to be trans and to work and date day to day 

Davina not sure if what I’ve had is gender dysphoria \s big gaps no opportunity to dress i have something which I’ve self diagnosed as gender dysphoria my need to be Davina to escape and for enjoyment. 

They discussed gender dysphoria a couple times because Nikki started to see once he’d found an online trans community talking to different people Nikki realized that this is kind of a spectrum of a community where you have people that dress part-time all the way to people who have transitioned and everything in between on that that trans spectrum so they had discussions about gender dysphoria and where Heidi was on that spectrum ns Heidi came up with she’s gender fluid which Nikki can appreciate because the other thing she researched and thought about and  pondered as one of her biggest takeaways at least in Heidi situation is as a female Nikki has the freedom to express herself in a male form or in a female form 

Davina _ I’m glad Nikki has identified this trans spectrum its there alright.

She could shave her head and nobody would look twice, put on a biker jacket and jeans and nobody looks sideways at her. 

But if a male person does anything that's feminine then they're put into this box and really ostracized for it at times and it's just not fair to have these feelings and have these instincts and not be able to act upon them it's much more than the clothes and the makeup and the the wig it's a matter of being able to be vulnerable 

Davina - Yep I’ve blogged enough about this.

E.g. Speaking to friends as Maddie (the interviewer) differently a little more excited or more sensitive which she would hold back as as Jim for example using the word “yummy” which Jim wouldnt say but MAddie would.

Jim would not reply back yummy because that's too girly which is ridiculous.

Davina - I know exactly what they mean I’m not say Yummy as a man.

Nikki says it’s been a neat journey for her as a spouse because shes had opportunities to talk to and to meet people across the trans spectrum.

She went back to college and took human anthropology classes where discussing things like gender which gave Nikki the opportunity to see the fact that men feel the need to maintain this masculinity, like they can't even have the freedom to type yummy in a response to something because of toxic masculinity even though to some extent I'm sure it’s an extreme version but it's it's on the spectrum 

For a lot of t girls that's part of why we like to do this, the escape where we can act differently. Maddie likes to study this stuff and try to understand it helps us help cope with everything because as much as we like it and as as much fun as this is it's still heavy emotional. 

The biggest reason Heidi says she’s never do it full-time is its too much hard work all the work to present fully feminine all the time. 

Davina plays havoc with your skin makeup every day, you need a good skin care regime.

Being in public as a t-girl you kind of get a taste for what women deal with every day about having to be aware of who's around you and you know walking to your car at night in heels 

Davina - Not just in public I’ve had men message me on line and be abusive when I’ve given them the cold shoulder. Luckily not had any trouble when I’ve been out in the past.

It’s also hard to keep track of who might be offended or who might be sneering or or threatening 

Somebody that I don't want to know finds out etc

Women deal with that all the time 

Was there ever a time when Nikki thought “I can't do this”

Nikki says Yes when he once had gone on a camping trip backpacking and she was home alone and wasn’t sleeping so googled Heidi Phoxand found flikr an account where she uploaded photos 

She didn't mind the photos but didn’t quite like that Heidi had this photo store where people could see her photos whichHeidi hadn’t told her about. 

The bigger thing was as she would look at the pictures and then read the comments.

There were some people from the community that were nice "Oh my gosh you look fabulous." etc which she appreciated, but then there were some that were kind of gross comments just inappropriate to her spouse who was dressed as a woman and it was just more than she could handle and he wasn't here to talk to about and she went further and further down the rabbit hole reading one photo's comments wasn't enough she decided she should just keep going and it just got worse and worse and when he was back home she said "So we need to talk." And conveyed to him what she had done and that she was upset And he felt like "All right well that's it This This is where it all ends”

Davina - I’m sure my wife would find similar on Reddit or Flikr if i’ve put a pic on line safely anon as no one would know its male me. I have my own lines in the sand I wont cross in life so my wife doesn’t have to worry although her saying “What you do as Davina i don’t need to know” - I didn’t like that as what do i do that she wouldn’t like to know? Being a crossdressers not all that existing lol.

They worked through it and Nikki in her head set these lines in the sand as far as his interest and what he does And it kept seeming like she would draw this line like this is okay as long as you don't this and then it would kind of bleed into an area she wasn't comfortable with and then had to readjust her comfort

They were still trying to find that comfort zone the right boundaries and place on the trans spectrum. 

Davina - I guess even 20 years in me and my wife are still trying to find a comfort zone. As Nikki and Heidi state it continues and you need to talk.

Obviously there’s no Husband crossdressing guide, there is no one set of boundaries So they were working on boundaries that fit both of them

Their comfort level 

Nikki realized there isn't really a line in the sand they just needed to be open and communicate all the time. A need to keep discussing limits and boundaries with Heidi and then she needed to share with Nikki what she's doing.

This would usually occur as a road trip conversation so a couple times a year where they’d really get down to discussing crossdressing and reassess everything.

Nikki saud Heidi having the blog and her you tube channel for her to see and read helped and also Nikki participating in some of those blogs and videos has also made it more comfortable.

Davina - I wrote my first blog for my wife to see the inner workings of my mad brain and think this blogs there for her also if she’d read it.. Maybe she will one day.

It’s made the communication a little bit easier because Nikki is somewhat a part of it and know people in the community.

Nikki thinks its helped with their discussions and it's made discussions fun at times.

Nikkis advice for the wives if it's comfortable for everybody if you can involve your wife or if the wife wants to get involved to a degree they can reap the benefits. You understand better, you know more about what's going on and your comfort level goes up and then you can actually have some fun with it 

Davina - nail on the head find a way to have fun with it.

What are the some of the the things they do together?

Nikki came up with an idea of a way of getting Heidi to do something she enjoys  - She likes to watch old movies.

They have girls nights in, candles, wine meal old movies dressed up like girl friends .. A girls movie night

Davina - We’ve had a few girls nights in may have more in the future maybe but hard with kids to make that private time.

Has Nikki ever questioned Heidi's sexuality?

Nikki says No.. probably early on she wondered if along with that gender fluidity if there was a sexuality fluidity but he and she have made it really clear to me that that's not on the cards for her.

Davnia - My wife asked if i was Gay (see my blog post) and I think this is a thing that sits with wives - Even in the video they skirt a little around this both share a look and a giggle - I think all women fear we dress to attract men, they know men are attracted to us as Tgirls but would be act on it with men - Hell no!!

Heidi says Nikki is very observant and when out at the bar as husband and wife she'll pick up on Him noticing a woman and if out as Nikki and Heidi she’d notice if Heidi was checking out a guy .. 

Davina - Hands up i do look at women. Love women, love legs and heels and tights and makeup and good hair. But I’m not letching like the typical man. I’m not about to run off with a woman more appraising her fashion and appreciating her. I think my wifes ok with that.

A comment is then made that most people don't really understand that most crossdressers are straight and that doesn't mean there are some crossdressers that aren't And again back to the spectrum drag queens are typically gay men the sexuality part that it is a spectrum but it doesn’t shift because you put on a pair of heels and and a skirt and a wig 

Would Nikki say that Heidi is a better husband in terms of being more sensitive a better listener 

Stereotypical female traits 

Nikki says absolutely maybe it was always there he has a few times felt insecurity "Well I'll just give it up." Nikki realized early on that Heidi brought all these different pieces that make up this human being the male side the female side And if we put Heidi away she might lose some of the characteristics of him that she loves because Heidi's a part of that.

Davina - My wife would see the same with me as when i suppress Davina or can’t crossdress she must see a different side to me more pent up and frustrated and when I’ve dressed a lighter side to me happier - Mental health fixed temporarily.

Nikki thinks he’s an extremely sensitive man ie When they watch movies either as Heidi or as Steve if it's emotional he cries sometimes more than she’ll cry 

Davina - I’m sensitive but as a man I hide it. I may fight back tears when watching a sad movie and secretly wipe them away as I have the alpha trait to hold up.

It's almost like having a girlfriend within your husband the best of both worlds because because she has that female sensitive side to her and then she also has this very masculine side who likes to hike and sweat and watch football and drink a beer she has this side that is masculine but then she has this sensitive side and and Nikki thinks that makes the perfect person for her

Davina - I’d like my wife to think of Daivna like that a best girlfriend inside her husband someone she can and does confide everything in and abe to talk about girly things as well as everything else.

A lot of men probably have those traits but suppress them and try to hide them because society tells them that's not appropriate or they don't want to be seen as they don't want to reveal that they have some feminine traits Or maybe women didn't want to take the risk that Nikki took because you don't know if that balance is going to come out the way it has It could have flung way over to the feminine 

For other wives out there  - How can they get a feel for how to get that balance?

Nikki says ‘communicating’ communication is probably number one And  really listen it's really important to hear what your person is saying.

Davina  - I agree and I’ve got to get the communication back up and running with my wife.

If your spouse comes out and says that they enjoy crossdressing it's very easy to jump to Caitlyn Jenner or to see this as being something that can change everything completely and maybe just listen to what they're saying and be receptive to that and see how you can support them because being the spouse of someone that has these feelings right now it looks really great like we're doing this podcast and we've got everything's perfect It's but there were times where she was very insecure about what she was feeling And probably more dark moments than Nikki would like to know that there were for her in this.

You need to be supportive because this isn't an easy thing to say i.e giving Nikkik the note he didn’t know how she was going to take it a vulnerability they both had to work on resolving and it paid off.

It's not perfect but without that risk they could have bailed on one another 

Would therapy have helped?

Nikki didn’t seek therapy specifically for the crossdressing she started seeing a therapist for another issue but did kind of bring this up with her therapist a little bit but it's never been something that she felt like she needed an outside party to help her 

One of the biggest things that she found was when she finally got to meet other spouses of crossdressers it helped her to have conversations with other women that are like her, at times very supportive and then at times kind of question this whole journey. It was just healthy to have that kind of a person to talk to 

Davina - I Wish my wife would listen to this as i think it would be eye opening and refreshing for her to talk to other wives of tgirls.

Nikki says it would have helped to be able to talk to other wives early on as she had no one to confide in or question.

She was a little jealous that Heidi had a trans on line support group and she had nothing.

It is kind of a lonely feeling at times even with the best of relationships there are times where it feels very lonely so it’s good to talk to other wives about things like “what was your journey?” .. “how did your spouse tell you?” .. “how did you react? etc 

DoesNikki have a favorite outfit that Heidi wears Nikkis says when she doesn't go super short with her outfits she feels like a mom sometimes “Uh that's too short I'm vetoing that one” 

Davina - Similar to my wifes classy not trashy - we had a sort out and all the very short dresses sadly went.

Overall she just likes seeing Heidi happy. She's got good style. 

Has the crossdressing ever affected their romantic or emotional connection in any any way?

Probably connected them even more emotionally but romantically?  In the early days they tried to incorporate it and it just wasn’t for Nikki Tried a couple of times and it was an experience not a bad experience but when in that mode she’d rather be with her spouse than with Heidi.

Heidi thought it would be fun but like most fantasies are better as fantasies than realities and it was just more awkward and it was really hard to figure out how to act and it was a little bit weird .. What roles do you play etc 

Davina - We’ve explored after a lot of booze and for me its been great.. My wife plays the i was so drunk i cant remember it card. If we’re intimate again with me Dressed I’ll leave her to start it as she says shes not interested.

Has Nikki ever been shamed or had any challenges because of crossdressing?

Almost outed by a friend was the closest they came to being shamed they chose in the heat of the moment to bring up Heidi in a bit of an argument. 

Davina - This is one of my wifes fears others finding out.

Advice from Nikki?

One of the biggest one is to remember the person you married they're still the same person, clothing is only an outward appearance of a person the inside is still all there and to make sure you remember the person that you married and not not be too critical just because of the clothing.

You end up getting an even better husband out of it 

Davina - I think my advice would be its not as bad as you imagine just talk and try to understand and have fun with it dont let it be a threat or a worry get involved and control the level of crossdressing set the boundaries and agree them and just enjoy it.. There are worse things!

Heidis parting words “I'm super super lucky. Things could have gone south many times” 

Davina