By: Katie
Subject: Contradictions
Just something for you all to ponder.
I watched the videos that Davina posted and a couple of extras and one thing that stood out is the concern amongst heterosexual women that they would be considered a lesbian if they found their husband sexually attractive dressed as a woman. Logically this says that they consider them to be a woman as being a lesbian is sexual attraction between the same sex.
To contradict this if a heterosexual male finds a crossdresser attractive then he would be considered gay or bi-sexual as he is attracted to a man in a dress.
If one instance it appears that gender presentation and not biological sex that determines the sexual orientation and in the other situation it is biological sex and not gender presentation.
This is when biological sex and gender become really confusing. Biological sex is relatively easy to determine on a naked human being - a quick glance in the right area is all that is really needed! Gender on the other hand is hard to determine on a naked human being as it really needs markers such as clothing to give an indication.
So is it gender expression or sex that determines homosexuality or is it either?
Does that make a crossdressed man who fancies women a lesbian (as Eddie Izzard once said) or is he a straight lesbian! Is a woman who fancies a man crossdressed a lesbian until the point he removes any evidence that the gender he is expressing is female, at which point she become straight? Likewise is straight man who is sexually attracted to a crossdresser straight until the point that the crossdresser is no longer presenting as a woman or at the point the straight man discovers the crossdresser is really a man?
There are just so many permutations and degrees it becomes impossible.
One to under anyway and I should imagine a real 'head spin' for Sindy lol.
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions
The Victorians! I think they have a lot to answer for for many of the hang ups we have today.
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions
Funny you say that, but I've often wondered if crossdressing isn't a 'peacock' throwback. Most males in other species are the pretty, showy ones. Look at the male lion and all that hair! Male birds wear all sorts of fussy, bright feathers and even perform dances for the rather plain jane girls.
Men were flouncy and frilly once. What happened? Seems it all randomly changed. Interesting thought...
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions
It is human nature to want to be accepted by the group. If you step out of line then you are punished and ostracised.
It is this fear the stops us and why society has given us gendered clothing. Clothing is normally the first clue and held us to determine sex from a distance but there are many other clues that we get to before we are fumbling around in the dark making a dreadful mistake! Most crossdressers stick out like a sore thumb and for the few that don't there are still tells which unless someone is off their face with drink they should pick up on.
I've often wondered that id some long lost Amazonian tribe walked out the rainforest and if the first westerner they encountered was a crossdresser I doubt they'd react in the same way as we do 'Is that a man in a dress'. Instead they may think that all western men dressed like that and when they see one in trousers it maybe a shock.
I get the impression that in many of these long lost tribes it is the men who are the peacocks wearing the jewellery and face paint and the women who are the dowdy ones. It's that way in nature too with many of the males being the showy ones trying to attract a mate so maybe crossdressing is some primitive throwback to when the males where the peacocks.
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions
And thought I'd add, I do get the irony that it's all simple biology under the clothing yet I can't look past that with my husband. But that's because my preference is for masculine men (not brutes but not feminine either) and the sexual clothing cues need to aline with the biology before I can feel anything. You know? I am more likely to be attracted (and then very disappointed lol) to a hot transman than my husband crossdressed.
But then I'm clearly very connected to these social cues (it really would be easier if we were all nude but probably also really gross haha) and maybe people raised with less rigid clothing rules would not find all this so difficult??
My head is now at my feet. Thanks Katie!
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions
People definitely have their intriguing personal preferences when it comes to attraction. I'll admit I laughed at the friend who likes the hairy girls, lol. Seems so foreign compared to the men I know, so yes I agree, how we present femininity and masculinity is entirely constructed. Even though I'm busy mom train wreck most days I'm still of the feminine kind.
And I totally get why Ricky Martin likes his new partner and vice versa! Did they both step out of a men's magazine or what?! Not that I'm complaining. :-D
Anyway, I still think all this is simple on a very primal level. Take off the clothing and I'll always feel sexually squicked out by the person with boobs and a vagina. These are the basic biological cues humans look for when finding a mate, but because society has deemed nudity wrong, we cover these cues in clothing which somehow still need to give off a sexual signal, otherwise we'd all be fumbling around with the wrong partner. Hence the reason for 'gendered' clothing - this will vary depending on what that society allows at any given moment. But of course, this clothing now allows people to give of a false biological signal so men can give off a female signal and vice versa. So I still think the initial response is simple and women being grossed out by men in women's clothing is still primal. It's the fact that people can now mess with these biological cues that has complicated things...wow my head is spinning pondering all this lol.
Think about it though, would you really have this compulsion if you'd never worn or even seen a lick of clothing in your life? Your ability to appear female would be next to impossible if nudity was the norm. I personally think even crossdressing falls under the social construct banner. Maybe you'd still want to feel feminine, (if in fact that is the reason behind the dressing and not because it's a response to the availability of women's clothing) and maybe in a nudist society feminists is expressed by wearing a chicken egg on your head while singing kumbahyah. Then we'd have blogs with wives lamenting that they discovered their husband singing in the shower, hahaha...ok got a bit nuts there.
Anyway, to me, Davina is still a straight guy when he admires what appears to be a woman. The social sexual cues are telling him this person is female. If the crossdresser removes the clothes and Davina is still attracted then voila, not so straight now, my friend lol.
As for lesbians that choose the more masculine woman so why not a man? Because they don't do penises lol. This is more about preference than gender in my mind. Tall/short, hairy/not. It's still simple biology under the clothing. I do indeed have a friend or two who prefer feminine men. No idea why, though I wouldn't say I love overly brutish types myself! Maybe it's a childhood thing and daddy was a big hairy arsehole so she feels safer with feminine men? Preference has so many pathways.
Societies construction of clothing has caused the complications. Without clothing, it's simple. Maybe in a futuristic world we will all be nude and this blog will be looked on fondly as the era when humans were batshit insane haha.
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Re: Contradictions
Hi Sindy
I don't think it is simple at all. It maybe easier to try and simplify the situation but there are so many different aspects to sexuality and gender that it can never be a simple as 1,2,3.
You have a dislike of femininity which is to do with gender and not sexuality. Many lesbian also feel the same and present themselves in a very masculine way. From general observation the majority of lesbians I have come into contact with are not the 'lipstick' variety fantasied about by heterosexual men but are rather butch preferring male clothing, short hair and being as masculine as possible.
I know a lesbian couple where one is very masculine and one is very feminine. I get the one who is into feminine females but just don't understand why the other would want to find a masculine female unless it is to do with sexuality. Is she rejecting the female form or not? Outwardly it looks as if she is so why not date a man?
Gay men will also vary from very effeminate to the big hairy bears. I know you have a thing for Ricky Martin but he's not presenting as he does for female attention (although he gets it) he's after a specific type of man and presents himself accordingly. Looking at his partner I'm not sure he'd go for an effeminate guy.
I think what I'm trying to say is how you present yourself (ultra feminine to ultra masculine) does not affect your sexuality. If you like men you like men and if you like women you like women and if you like both you like both. How they present will affect the attraction but does not determine sexuality.
I think that being 'grossed out by femininity' is a social construct and nothing to do with sexuality. Society defines what is masculine and what is feminine and what passes as both. This moves up and down a line as fashions change over time. It's also a cultural things. Does a kilt become a skirt if worn with tights and heels? Does a T shirt become feminine if it has a scope neck? Does a shirt become feminine if it's satin? The rules are very complicated and so are drilled into us from a young age.
What we find attractive is taught and can be unlearned given time, an open mind and the will to change. The doctor in the videos that Davina provided referred to crossdressers as 'sweet and cute'. She obviously taking a dispassionate view but in someways they may well be 'sweet and cute'. We're not trying to harm or fool anyone.
We enjoy a bit of fantasy to take us away from the mundane everyday world. It's escapism but also it's an expression of how we feel. It is 'sweet and cute' in the way we want to express a feminine side that may well exist in some form or other in all men.
Many women may find it ridiculous and are grossed out by it but it's OK for many women expressing there feminine side even if it may 'gross out' other women who want a masculine woman. It may even 'gross out' some men.
I prefer women to be feminine, soft, gentle and smooth. I know blokes who like their women hairy, there hairier the better. I've got a friend who's wife is very masculine in a lot of ways so I think that people can rebel from the norm. I've got friends who at first glance you might think were gay but they're happily married.
A bit cliched I know but people can grow to love and accept people for being different from societies norms.
By: Davina
Subject: Re: Re: Contradictions
A hetero guy or Crossdresser ogling a pretty crossdresser is only gay or bi if he actually acts on his attraction. Otherwise, he's just admiring the feminine form like all straight dudes.
Thank god for that as I've looked on TVChix of some of the pics on peoples profiles and thought wow stunning and commented on their pics how amazing I think they look.
Some RGs have commented to me that this makes me Bisexual and as Sindy states its a female form we're seeing its not like were doing anything physical with that person other than admiring how they look.
Women state all the time that they think another woman is beautiful doesn't make them bi or gay but as men don't say wow hes good looking as we just don't because we can look as a crossdresser and says wow he/shes beautiful doesn't mean we're bi or gay.
This is awkward enough to explain let alone men who do things with crosdressers other than fantasy and then the question is the fantasy alone enough to make one bisexual?
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Contradictions
I think my head fell clean off, Katie, haha.
Nah, the answer for me personally is simple. Biological sex determines gay/bi/straight. A hetero guy ogling a pretty crossdresser is only gay or bi if he actually acts on his attraction. Otherwise, he's just admiring the feminine form like all straight dudes.
The wives of crossdressers are also responding in a simple way. The sexual rejection of a crossdressed husband isn't because she literally feels like a lesbian. It's because her heterosexuality rejects the female form, even those wrapped around a very masculine husband. Calling ourselves lesbians is just a way of getting across the message that it's a massive sexual turn off so hands off! Men often need a heavy kick to get the message across, lol, and even then, it often doesn't work. How many times have I read of crossdressers lamenting their wives won't have sex wth them when dressed - some even calling it 'lesbian' sex. I'm fairly sure actual lesbians would resent the inclusion of men into their club, but so much of all this is not based in reality. So I don't literally feel like a lesbian but I am physically grossed out by femininity, even when it's on a man.
Thing is, I've had many fun, crazy years in my youth but these days, I am much more practically minded and not so much into all this fantasy stuff. I often wonder whether young wives are more tolerant of crossdressing because they're able to tolerate the fantasy side more. Me, I don't have time for it now and it just exasperates me. Ah well...
As for men who have sex with crossdressers and then call themselves straight. Nope. Sorry. The attraction to the feminine costume is straight but the sex with the man with the penis is NOT. Don't kid yourselves. You're bisexual or gay and should be kind to yourself and come clean.
So to me it's simple and I'd suggest to most people it's simple. But crossdressers seem to have a unique view on sex and gender (obviously lol) so I'm not surprised you can spin people's heads off, lol.
Interesting question. :-)
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions
Ahahahaha! Best typo ever. Now I have images of Tranny Ninjas rattling around in my head.
By: Davina
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions
Lol Katie nice typo I didn't say we dress t attack men lol like some leggy high heeled Ninja lol
Reply
Date: 23/12/2016
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions
Typos are always the best!
Channel 5 programme in the making 'When Trannies Attack"
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Re: Contradictions
I think the problem is that sex and gender become interchangeable in many peoples minds. Homosexuality is the attraction to the same sex but I've also seen people define it as attraction to the same sex and GENDER which is wrong.
I can understand wives not finding us sexually attractive dressed as women just as we might not find them sexually attractive in a pair of old joggers and a t shirt. BUT it does not make them lesbians if they do find us attractive as we are the opposite sex. I believe it is the fear of thinking that they might be considered lesbians that may inhibit them in someway.
As you say the majority of crossdressers don't dress to attack men we dress for our own enjoyment.
It was interesting though that the wives on the show separated their husbands into the male mode and the female mode and acted differently when presenting as each. If he was in female mode then he became a 'girlfriend' and kissing and holding hands would stop in public. But if he was in male mode then it was acceptable.
I know that Sindy has said that women find to hard to compartmentalise so maybe this is how these women accept their husbands dress. By compartmentalising.
By: Davina
Subject: Re: Contradictions
I think I already know Sindys answer.
I covered terms of reference in my blog and posed similar questions ie if a man finds another man "in drag" or cross dresser attractive I see no problem as round of applause to the crossdresser pulling off looking like an attractive woman.. Every crossdressers goal not to attract men but to look convincing and to look attractive.
But
Should the man who likes how the crossdresser looks make further advances knowing its a man and they engage in sex that's bisexual.
Now take my wife she says I look ok as "Davina" but would consider it a lesbian act should she have sex with Davina which as Mr Spock would say is illogical for TH same reason the man and the t girl would be considered bisexual if my wife and I had sex with me presenting as Davina it would be heterosexual sex as I'm a man and she's a woman but psycologically she sees a woman and is turned off.
Then there's tgirls who think other girls look attractive I hold my hand up as some girls look stunning but back to man and t girl should a tgirl go further than admiration and have sex back to bisexual.
I have said many times LGBT - having the T there confuses people as Trans is not. Sexuality the other 3 are its black and white I may look ok as a tgirl but I'm a straight man under the makeup wig and dress.
It's a worthy debate but the main debate of concern for wives and girlfriends I suppose.. Omg yo cross dress does that mean you're gay or you want to attract men "NO!!!!!" Shouted in the same pain Luke shouted it when Vader told him he was his father..
I dress for me and if people find me attractive when dressed cool but I do t dress to attract anyone I dress for me.