By: TRinny T girl

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Incompatibility

Hi Sindy glad you didn't take offence

WE can all only tell it from our perspective and that what I like here. I've read Davinas blogs for a few years not really thinking it effected me as being young free and single but it has taught me never to hide my crossdressing from girlfriends and the reason I've not stayed with a girlfriend is down to other things not the dressing up and I'm not ready for commitment yet. I was one of the emaillers to Davina who convinced me to join in the chat.

I will avoid being the sad, rejected and in the closet hoping when I do meet the one she will be accepting of my crossdressing and my bi side which thinking about it a lot may be a passing phase which I know if I settled down and got married I'd push to the back of my life and be faithful and think I could sort out talking enough not to bang on but also so not to have someone go off this part of me in 20-30 years time that is if I still crossdress then.

But I don't want to marry a tgirl either I want a woman not a man who looks like one lol but if the right tgirl asks me on a date sure I'll continue to meet as it doesn't mean they want sex lots of dates have been just that, we've gone out shopping dressed, cinema or just for drinks as "girls"

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Incompatibility

Davina, you are very sweet worrying about me but if I recall, I started this whole chain of events by coming here and telling y'all I can't stand overly sensitive flowers and that I'd tell it like it is even if it offends people. So I'm fine, I promise. And I still tell it like it is lol.

Of course, I can only tell it from my perspective, with the reality of research when needed. It was a researched fact from the support forum I used to frequent that most of the wives very acknowledged they wouldn't have dated a crossdresser if they'd known from the start. It was also sheepishly acknowledged my many wife's in a crossdressers.com post. I'm sure it's still there somewhere. It was very eye opening to the men on the forum at that time. And the women.

But if I knew when I met my husband of the children and life we would have together? Well, no contest. Of course I marry him. That's why most women stay with crossdressers. It's not because they like the dressing - they like everything else and that makes up for the dressing.

Sort of sad, in a way. But that's reality.

And Trinny (Mark), you're young and my target market for this post lol. Seriously! You can read here and see how hard it all is. I want you to avoid being the sad, rejected husband in twenty years whose wife initially 'accepted' and now can't stomach anything to do with it. Or maybe she accepts yet you feel selfish and guilty. Or maybe....the list is endless. So you don't want to end up with a Tgirl, fine - but plan now to meet a woman who knows about Trinny from DAY ONE and doesn't just see it as some kinky fun you'll outgrow. Oh yeah, that also happens a lot. As does the idea that you can be changed, that when kids arrive you'll stop, and that therapy is a valid option to help you stop.

I have chatted to women who did all these things!

I also chatted to many who made it work, but that mostly involved the husband putting the dressing in a tiny little box and only indulging it when it was appropriate. He wasn't free or even really accepted. He was tolerated.

Can you live with that? If not, find that unicorn woman who loves crossdressing, or decide to compromise like Davina and Katie and my husband have. I don't know if they're completely happy with that? Only they can answer.

Otherwise, go date another crossdresser!!!

By: Davina

Subject: Re: Re: Incompatibility

Working from home just checking to see if there are any new posts and Kaboom!!

Sindy a good thought provoking post and I understand both responses but please don't take the responses as an affront on you as you're invaluable in here keeping it real and adding a real womans perspective, thoughts, queries and you provide this blog with massive benefits from your thoughts xxxx and Katie and Trinny the same all good open commentary.

Trinny welcome to the blog an interesting first posting

I go with the thought of I'm a man with a plan... I planned on 2 kids, wife, good job nice house, holidays bringing up the kids right etc etc and just happens once per month I might crossdrress.

I wasn't open up front but there were reasons as Crossdressing virtually stopped but started again mid 20's and continued into my very early 40s today.

I'll add the questions you posed to the questionaires on the front of the page later Sindy see what wives contribute to the stats.

Trinny I will ask my wife two questions

1) If when I was 19 I told you I crossdressed would you have walked away?

2) If I was 19 and you could see 21 years into the future and see what we have, two stunning well brought up kids, house, careers a good marriage but I crossdress would you make the same decision to walk away?

I'll see what she says.

Chin up Sindy maybe you need to open up some of these feelings with your husband?

By: Trinny T girl

Subject: Re: Incompatibility

Why don't crossdressers just date other crossdressers?

I want to add in another outside viewers angle here please don’t take offence.

A great idea. I’m 25 in the UK and single so non married bisexual perspective and I’d say I’m a very convincing looking T-Girl and go out in public as Trinny unnoticed as a man in drag and I have dated Crossdresers but alas after the fun of the date and what may happen at the end of a date, you wake up in the morning with a man and I say I’m Bisexual but I don’t fancy men (Go Figure) the sight of a man in bed the next morning is not a turn on but a T-Girl like myself young free single and sexy looking as a woman and I’m up for that.

Its a new sexuality T-girls who fancy other T-girls but only as T-girls a lust thing maybe. You will say no its not its Bi or Gay but there IS more than 3 sexualities and attractions and I must add Crossdressing isn't all about sex.

The benefits no PMT, no not bothering to dress nice and as we’re really men we know what makes one another tick sexually, we know what one another is thinking, wants and likes and we like to dress as women, like makeup and lingerie and stockings and high heels.

I have also dated women and introduced them to Trinny and some have been ok some have run a mile that’s their choice.

It must be hard to be married and straight (or secretly Bi or become Bi later in life) wanting to make a marriage work but at a stage where your wife can’t be bothered to make the effort for you let alone herself and making that extra effort she will make to look her best for a night out with her girl friends is a kick in the balls for a man (I have older friends who have stressed this to me) I bet, so Older T-Girls whos wives have gone off you or whatever it is that happens go and date other T-Girls and have some fun.

Of course I’m joking as your marriage is far more important than your part time Crossdressing.

Women like masculinity but strange how women also like a softer side to their man also a more sensitive modern man who can be strong and aggressive and protect them when needed but also a shoulder to cry on and a softer compassionate side but “You cannot dress like a woman!”

Society says its wrong! So Stop right there or I'm leaving you!

Oh sorry I’m new here by the way my real names Mark but Trinny the Tranny was something a girl called me once so Trinny stuck. I am university educated and have a good job and I play a lot of sport and fit the Alpha male mould but guess what I crossdress and have since young and so what!

Why does Crossdressing occasionally which wives probably don’t even see as its done in private most of the time I assume have any effect on a wifes attraction to her husband that’s nonsense and purely in the wifes head as I’m no different as a man or as a tranny I’m the same man just look different from time to time so is it more of a threat to wives femininity more than the non-attraction as he is a crossdresser, is there a non attraction if he’s an alcoholoc? Or if he’s into dressing up as a stormtrooper or if he’s into fishing? It’s a hobby as much as anything so what!

I suggest men marry women as they’re straight, fall in love and marry have kids make a life as what’s this got to do with Crossdressing apart from a wife not understanding it the same as has been written here the inverse a wife dresses nice makes an effort snares her man stops wearing makeup and dressing nice and making an effort for her husband to look her best bearing in mind the man continues to look his best then he says he crossdresses and all of a sudden there’s a problem?.

I’m 25 I crossdress maybe once per week and enjoying the single life but fully expect in the next 5 years that I’ll want to find a girlfriend and settle down into my 30s have kids and a family life is that wrong just because I Crossdress?

I love the fem image I’ve dated beautiful women and beautiful t-girls but the dating t-girls happened by chance a little drunk like Sarah in here below somewhere but was with a T-Girl and her Wife (3 some go me) and I liked it I’m single so have dated a few T-Girls and had fun again so what? I'm Bisexual but that doesn't mean I should settle for a man (yuck) as I prefer women.

I never considered until that chance encounter with a crossdressing couple that I’d ever do anything sexual with another T-Girl and this was egged on my the wife,

I wont go into detail but it was a lot of fun and debauchery.

So I never ever considered dating tgirls before this.

But yes Sindy Tgirls can be feminine and wear all the feminine items I love but I still want to marry a woman and have a family in the future.

Is it a true fact that most women would not date a crossdresser if they knew upfront?

A serious incompatibility issue are you serious?

Crossdressing is occasional and a small portion of who we are so there is a 95% compatability between a man and a woman or a woman and a crossdresser (Man).

You quote a would be law which has the inverse as it’s illegal to out a Trans person so is Davina illegal to not tell his wife he crossdressed until a few years into their marriage? Albeit occasional dressing up which escalated with stress so I read (and get).

"If law said you had to tell people you crossdressed Most of you would be screwed. Most women would avoid you, and you know this"

We don’t know this there aren’t any statistics to prove this.

“In reality, if you were obligated to tell people upfront, most of you would end up alone” let me flip this on it’s head.

I’m 25 find a wife shes sexy makes an effort but in 10 years time shes 35 and stops making an effort to look her best lets herself go doesn’t wear makeup pushes away any affection from me “In reality, she was obligated to tell me upfront that she’s do this at 35, so most of you would end up alone” touche’

Davina ask your wife if you’d told her upfront would she have married you?

If the answer is no I’d say that’s pretty shallow and self centred and very narrow minded as you have kids and a great marriage a good life right?

Hope this hasn't offended but I feel had to be typed.

By: Katie

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Incompatibility

I read and I am re-readin a book called 'Mindset' by Dr Carol S Dweck.

In it she describes two mindsets, fixed and growth. I am trying to make sure that my children grow up with a growth mindset, something also encouraged by their school.

I do believe that you can change from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset. It is hard work and it's so easy to fall back into old ways.

I've learned that certain things cannot be changed and I think that crossdressing is one of them. Forums are littered with men who have tried and failed. I'm sure that if someone had been successful then they would have made a fortune selling the 'cure'. I keep looking!

Any relationship is always a gamble. It starts of with attraction and turns into love. But as the relationship develops then little hurdles are put in the way that test it. Until you reach that hurdle it is very difficult to know how people will react. Hurdles might be bringing up children, illness, death in the family etc. You can't discuss every eventuality so you have to trust your instinct.

I think the only way to make a marriage work is for both people to have growth mindsets. They need to want to work together to overcome these hurdles. If you're both in fixed positions with no give or take then the situation will only fester.

That is why the divorce rate is crap. Saying that most of the people here seem to be doing OK which may indicate that they do have this ability work and grow together. We may all secretly have growth mindsets!

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Incompatibility

Actually, I'm a lost cause here. I don't really chat here to help myself as much as keep the discussion running so other couples might read here. (I really needed the support forum I chatted on many years ago, and can't see where else people can go that isn't super biased toward crossdressing) My own opinion and situation is pretty much set in stone now and my acceptance level, if you can call it that, is where it will remain. I personally don't feel a need to shift forward any further and decided quite a few years back that I won't push myself either because it doesn't help me at all. It might help him, but I'd resent him for it. I still think the onus was on him to find a partner that meshed well with his dressing and he didn't. Hence this topic in the first place - there needs to be more forethought into relationships when you're a crossdresser, but instead I just see men marrying women who don't know or like it and then everyone gets to be unhappy.

I will be warning my own children to make sure they find a partner that fits their values and needs and doesn't make them question these things or make them feel uncomfortable. I really don't want to see the younger generation get stuck like we all seem to be. I'm also not a big believer, unlike you Katie, that people can change. If that were the case then I think you and every man here could stop the dressing and we could close this blog. People are who they are, so finding someone who shares your important interests and values, while very difficult, is the only way to true compatibility.

And clearly, given the divorce rate, humans are utterly crap at it!

By: Katie

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Incompatibility

The grass is always greener on the other side!

It's sad but if you're alway trying to achieve perfection it will always end in disappointment.

Perfect doesn't always work - Brad / Jennifer - Brad /Angelina. Muscular, masculine man and beautiful feminine women - what could go wrong twice!

Be thankful for what you have and try and iron out the problems.

I truly believe that with the right attitude you could come to accept crossdressing as nothing more than an expression of identity. You know it's not a refection on you. You know he's still the man you married. You know he's doing his best to hide it from you. You also know that it probably hurts him to feel rejected.

If you keep blaming on some primitive condition over which you have no control then you are accepting defeat.

I know that you could flip it on the head and say if it's that easy why don't you quit crossdressing. Believe me I've tried as I suspect have most men who crossdress but getting over a primeval fear is easy in comparison when there's no rational reason to feel that way. When I've wanted to I've succeeded.

Knowledge is a great power in overcoming these fears and I'm sure that you know far more now than ever before so really the ball is in your court. It's your decision.

I don't hate you Sindy. I want to help and it hurts when I see you taking backward step. And you know that that is the honest truth.

By: Katie

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Incompatibility

Monkey's don't wear clothes.

It is society that creates a gender around clothes and then reinforces this through social conditioning. You use this social conditioning to build your own picture of masculinity.

Any 'primitive attraction' would be for the male naked form.

Sticking a dress on him doesn't make him any less of a man, it is only the social conditioning 'that men don't wear dresses' that diminishes him in your eyes.

That's why I believe in the 'programming'. And believe me that there are centuries of programming to undo but a primitive man and woman would have dressed the same and it is only as society developed and changed that the differences occurred.

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Incompatibility

And sorry had to add that I entirely disagree about the programming thing. I think it's innate in women to seek an alpha male and crossdressing is seen as the opposite. It's not socially conditioned - it's a throwback to our monkey days. Whether we can override it will have to be seen. Men don't seem to be overriding their need for feminine women. I suspect women will always prefer a masculine man, and a masculine man who can share feminine qualities without needing to wear a dress would be like our unicorn.

The perfect man is a muscular, masculine-appearing man with the heart of a woman. Do that, and you'll never be lonely again!!

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Incompatibility

Thanks for the honest response, Katie. Always welcome. I don't doubt for one second that you're all amazing men here - I really don't. But crossdressing is a negative issue for many women. As ridiculous as it seems and as harmless as it seems, it pushes some innate biological no-go button in so many of us that the entire situation really does make me scratch my head in confusion. How the hell is this meant to work?

So it just hit me like some 'aha' moment that all this could be solved by crossdressers dating each other. Seriously. I thought it made sense! (Sarah and Sylvia, this is your fault! lol)

I have seen the research and even read that big forum post on that main forum where wives were asked 'would you have married your husband if you'd known from the start' and even the uber accepting women said, no. So that's reality. It's a harsh reality but it's there. Not sure how it helps anyone, but it explains why I read what Sarah and Sylvia were getting up to and suddenly thought they had the right idea! Don't we all want a simpler life?

Ah well, it was a lucid moment for a second. Perhaps I sense a sexual flexibility in crossdressing men that I don't in others, so I really did think maybe more were like Sarah. His relationship with his wife has improved by the sound of it but only because she's likely ignoring her own discomfort and indulging the crossdressing in order to keep the relationship. And yet, it sounds like more intimacy and understanding was found with the other Tgirl. It really does. The relationship with his wife sounds like hard work - all our relationships here sound like hard work. (Other than Emma's:)

But maybe that's the nature of marriage? See, I'll never know, because I married into a situation where difficulty is the default. And maybe the two steps forward, one back you mention is because I'll always wonder if I'm missing out on an easier, more compatible relationship. As time goes on, I'll admit I wonder less because it seems like everyone is having difficulties. But thats the honest truth there, Katie. Don't hate me too much.

By: Katie

Subject: Re: Incompatibility

Oh Sindy! I thought you were making such progress in you wanting to accept your husband and then you post this. It sometimes appears one step forward and two steps back.

I and the majority of other crossdressers are heterosexual men. We don't want a relationship with another man, however he is dressed. God, I went through the turmoil of wondering if I was gay. Can you imaging a 12 year old boy worrying he might be gay because he wanted to wear his sisters clothes? Nobody to talk to, having to deal with it yourself. As I said it's what's under the bonnet that counts and I have no interest in male bodies. We want feminine women that we can love and have families with. Is that wrong?

'What a mess! And yet, you continue to marry us.'

Do you want to start denying men the right to find love and have families because of some small 'kink'? What other 'kinks' make men unsuitable husbands and fathers? Do we just go through the list of paraphilia as a starting point and then look into family history, hobbies, background checks etc?

'In reality, if you were obligated to tell people upfront, most of you would end up alone. (I wouldn't have dated my husband if I'd known from day one. Research suggests most crossdressers wives feel the same.)'

That's a really sad statement. Millions of men alone because they like to crossdress and millions of others because of some other socially unacceptable kink. That also means millions of 'normal' women alone. Is that really the future? Whose's left? "I'm sorry madam but there was nothing in his past that would suggest he would abuse you - he passed all the tests".

Maybe we should all take a lie detector test before we get married? Have you ever tried on your mothers clothes? REJECT/INCOMPATIBLE - not ft to be a husband or father. Really! Incompatible! I like to wear women's clothes, therefore, I am some sort of pariah who a normal woman could never find attractive and God forbid a suitable husband and father. Maybe all crossdressers should walk around with a badge or tattoo so that normal women can be warned off. Is that a solution?

Your beautiful children who you adore wouldn't exists if that was the case. That breaks my heart.

We've gone over the whole honesty thing in the past but it works both ways. How many wives are totally honest on day one? I'm sure my wife has stuff from the past that she doesn't want to tell me and I don't want to hear. You can't go through life being totally honest all of the time. We all put on a front to the world, painting ourselves in a good light and anyone who says they don't is a liar.

People change. Some men trade in their wives for a younger model when the old one gets dated. I have no intention of trading in my wife. I made a commitment that I intend to keep and so should she. And to divorce over something so trivial as crossdressing is wrong. And it is trivial in the scheme of things.

As we've discussed in the past. When I married my wife crossdressing didn't really register. It only manifested itself later - people change.

'I think nature screwed this up big time'.

It's got nothing to do with nature. Crossdressers continue to breed! It's not hereditary. It's modern society that is screwed up and the biases and prejudices that it builds into all of us.

If you and other women can't or won't see through the crossdressing to see a kind, loving husband and great father then that is the problem. We didn't make a conscious decision to be crossdressers, we just are and no matter how hard we try and fight it it just keeps coming back. We've had to learn to accept that this is part of who we are, the whole package. It doesn't define us it is just part of us.

You can't stop a gay man being gay and you can't stop a crossdresser being a crossdresser. You can't stop and alcoholic being and alcoholic and you can't stop a depressive getting depressed. You can suppress and hide them but they will all out in the end.

If wives and partners can't see past the crossdressing then that is a real shame. It is them, their husband and children who will miss out. As you said before most marriages don't end because of crossdressing so most women are able to accept, if they can't then we know what happens.

Nobody has ever said that women should accept crossdressing. All anybody ever asks is that they try to accept and understand. To me being in a marriage is give and take, accepting the warts and all. I don't flaunt my crossdressing and she doesn't mention it. Our marriage is the same before disclosure as after. We tell each other we love them, we support then and above all we do everything we can for our children.

If my wife had been told I crossdressed at outset and had been narrow minded to walk away then this planet would have been denied two wonderful children. I think that I have all the right attributes to be a loving husband and fathers. Why prevent me from passing on my love and morals to my children who will hopefully make this planet an better place.

Societies lack of tolerance is the problem. Nothing to to with natural instinct it's how everyone is programmed. You can overwrite the programme if you really want to. It's difficult and hard work but you must want to do it.

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Incompatibility

And I thought I'd better add, when I say I wouldn't have dated my husband, I don't mean because I think crossdressing is wrong or even weird (okay, it's a bit weird lol). I would have avoided him knowing there would be a sexual compability issue with his dressing and I would have wanted to avoid that. I am not attracted to femininity in a partner - even the occasional kind.

We really are a terrible choice for y'all. :-(