By: Katie

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mystique

Epigenetics is very new and still very much in it's infancy but having read about it I don't think the jump is too great in assuming that if genes can be altered by certain events or influences (hormones, drugs etc) then the genes affecting 'femininity' can't be exaggerated in men. In teenagers it's hormonal, middle aged men stress (typically starts again) and I've also read about illness triggering crossdressing. It supposes that it lay dormant in every man it just needs the trigger.

It might be complete tosh but it's the best explanation I have ever found.

Here's a couple of articles to get you going:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/10369861/Epigenetics-How-to-alter-your-genes.html

https://www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2014/apr/25/epigenetics-beginners-guide-to-everything

Finding a solution for crossdressing is probably a long way off. But if scientist can find a way of modifying genes then it is entirely possible.

The question you ask about whether I or any other crossdresser would change our behaviour if it was possible is interesting. My immediate t thought is yes. It would make life a lot easier! However, this is something that has been part of me for so many years and I'd be scared that taking it away may alter my personality in some way. I'd hate to lose crossdressing and then find I become the sort of man I despise. What if I'm a better person for my crossdressing? I do think it makes me more tolerant and understanding because I understand what it is like to be a member of a socially outcast group.

Equally you could ask a gay man if he could take a pill and wake up the next day straight would he do it? Think of how life changing that would be!

I guess we're just a whole melting pot and how we turn out is influenced by a whole host of factors. Some of them inherited, some of them environmental and some of them social.

It gets a bit dangerous when we can start picking and choosing. And even more if society starts making the choice on behalf of the individual. We'd end up like a bunch of Midwich cuckoos!

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mystique

Epigenetics sounds like a waxing device lol. I'll have to google it when I get a minute. I often think maybe any man could be a crossdresser but whatever it is that causes it hasn't been triggered in the vast majority. It's so relatively common and yet the reasons are so vast it makes more sense that something dormant is turned on in crossdressers than you have a separate condition. A dormant trait would explain the huge variation in reasons yet also explain the oddly familiar result. I mean, the crossdressing behavior itself is so ridiculously standard you could write up a template and I'd bet most of you would fit it. Yet not a single life history is the same. Weird.

A dormant trait would also explain the late starters. I knew a woman whose husband had zero tendency until he hit 50! I mean, he never, ever considered it. He had a minor health issue and boom, suddenly he desires to feminize himself. That must have been his trigger.

Anyway, all this is only relevant if the powers that be plan on creating a cure. Why else do you need a reason unless you're hoping the answer can fix the problem? Obviously most of us wives would love it to stop! But it's not our lives that would be affected and I wonder how many men would take the cure if there was one?

You do like to make me think, Katie lol.

By: Katie

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mystique

Yes. When I say more about women I do mean presentation. But how women presented themselves is a huge industry and a big part of what society expects - restrictive or not. Both men and women are restricted by society and crossdressing allows men to break out of these conventions and express a different part of themselves.

From what you said the shy dudes want to be ogled and found sexy BY (not like) women and don't like the fact that society expects them to make all the running. I'm sure that if all these guys looked like 'Ricky Martin' (lol) they'd have women chasing after them so maybe it's just deeper than them resenting how women get it 'easy' in the dating stakes. From what I understand finding a partner is now a swipe away which seems a pretty easy way of breaking the ice!

As we discussed before I think most crossdressers want to make the most of the lot they are dealt. Isn't that what women do when the wear clothes and makeup? Everything is done to enhance the best features and hide the worst. And yes we do want to experience the sexual power that women possess even if it is just for our own benefit.

Being found attractive is an important part of being a part of society. We all like to look an feel our best for our own self esteem. People who stop caring about how they look can slowly become ostracised and disappear from society. To some people that appeals but most of us want to appear clean and presentable. That's what society dictates.

Society also dictates that women should be free of 'visible' body hair, wear make up and if they want to be feminine then the should have long hair. If they want to regulate femininity even more then they can choose to wear different clothing.

It's funny how you say 'Lord knows why you want to be a part of that as plenty of us find it restrictive' when we come from an equally restrictive side of the gender divide. I'm sure that there are days when you slob it out in an old t shirt, joggers, trainers and no make up - just like a man! Does it feel good to get out of your restrictive side? You might not necessarily feel sexy but I'm sure you feel a bit more relaxed and less stressed (unless of course you need to leave the house lol).

I do think that there maybe a biological reason for crossdressing. The best reason I have seen so far is epigenetics. An exposure to an outside influence can turn on or off genetic markers that can regulate behaviour. That could be hormones in the womb or as we hit puberty. It can even be an environmental factor. I don't know but it does seem to explain a number of different behaviours so the jump is not too great.

By: Davina

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mystique

Some good points made by both.

I will write a blog based on this when I have more time.

A busy family 4 day bank holiday weekend ahead.

Hope you both have a good one.

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mystique

That all makes sense and for some women, like Emma who is actually enjoying things now, the makeover stuff is fun and bonding. For others it can just be odd and a little irritating as I think women envisage maybe guiding their actual teenage daughter in these matters one day but certainly not their husband! And when you say you're seeking to know more about women, you do realize you're talking about our physical presentation. What we wear isn't who we are so learning make up and hair and waxing has nothing to do with our lives.

As a husband you already KNOW your wife and who she is. This other stuff is just something she's been expected to do since birth. Lord knows why you want to be a part of that as plenty of us find it restrictive. We've discussed that side already though but still, I'll always be perplexed why men would ever want to be seen the way women are seen or expected to dress and behave the way we have been expected.

Which is why I mentioned those shy dudes. They WANT to be ogled and found sexy like women. Isn't this what you want when you crossdress or are you honestly happy to look like an ugly pretend woman? From what I've read, even if this is the reality, pretty much ALL men who crossdress desire to look like a sexy woman. Therefore, there IS a psychological desire to experience the sexual power sexy women have. Yes??

So you're not so different from these shy dudes. You just go about it a different way and while you're the opposite of shy around women, you're delving into our lives in a way that even women probably couldn't be bothered with.

Really, if you ask me, it all boils down to some men having an innate need to experience a feminine side of themselves either through crossdressing or general behavior or whatever. I bet one day they'll finally find the biological link that makes you the way you are. It's too common and this theme of wanting to experience what women have/do/see/wear etc is too strong in what I bet is a relatively large percentage of the male population for it to be an odd anomaly.

Yin and yang....we all need this balance of masculine and feminine in life and yet men are continually denied it. My guess is it comes out in different ways when it is denied. For you and Davina it's a fun yet persistent fantasy you've had since childhood. For other men it's a sad and persistent resentment they've had since childhood. The human life will always seek balance even if it ultimately makes life harder.

That's just my two cents anyway. :-)

By: Katie

Subject: Re: Re: Mystique

Hi Sindy

It's interesting you use the term 'nurturing' the behaviour. It makes it seem like something that we have been practicing daily to carefully achieve our aims.

To some degree it couldn't be further from the truth which is why there seems to be an odd obsession with sharing 'makeovers'.

I reckon that I've probably spent no more than 20 hours in my life putting on make up. If you said a woman takes on average 20 minutes a day putting on make up, that's about 2 ½ hours a week, 120 hours a year and by the age of 50 probably over 4,500 hours. If I wanted my wife to help with my makeup it wouldn't be some teenage fantasy but practical help by using all her experience. The same goes for clothes and style it's all about tapping into a wealth of experience. I'm sure if my wife ever got hold of my wardrobe over half of it would end up in a charity shop!

Women too need help, I've stood in MAC watching women being made over, there are plenty of personal shopper out there and the shelves are full of women's magazines. All these are difficult for a closeted crossdresser to access so yes, we may act as teenage girls eager to learn and experiment but only because we've never gone through that phase in our lives. When our wives and partners find out the 'pink fog' phase can release all this pent up feelings and we want to be able to experience the whole process. Who better to guide us than the woman we adore and admire?

So adult women will have long passed this 'teenage' phase but we have never which is why the idea of the 'lets stay in and make each other over' appeals. It about fulfilling a desire to understand more about women.

I don't really identify with the painfully shy men who want to be pursued by women. And I don't think crossdressing is an extreme version of this. I think the motivation to crossdress has nothing to do with resenting women, in fact the complete opposite!

I've chased girls and I've also been chased by girls. I know about unwanted attention and how difficult it must be for women who experience it all the time. I think if women want something today they're more likely to go out and get it and that includes a man!

Yes. Men are totally irrational at times. Women tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves but with men it's all going on underneath!

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Mystique

I don't know about most wives, only myself and those I've talked to. Most, including myself, didn't feel the crossdressing affected any feminine mystique or whatever, as men dressing as women are a very different beast to actual women. (How many women do you know hide beard stubble, wear hip pads or tuck their penis lol). But I do know many wives feel the 'other woman' can seem more important than the actual woman in his life. And maybe 'she' is, given how long he's been nurturing the behavior.

And rarely would a wife find it beneficial that her husband is also into makeup, waxing, heels etc. Adult women are usually WAY past the stage of wanting to share these things with anyone. We got over that in our teens! It's just what we do to look nice and few women will dress up together for an evening out. Yet crossdressers have an odd obsession with sharing makeovers with a girl as though this is the norm. I have to say, I probably wouldn't be friends with a woman who wanted to play dress up before we went out as I'd worry she had issues lol.

So definitely a different beast and hopefully most wives can see that and not feel personally threatened. Crossdressers are like men with a teenage girl inside, and we all know what teenage girls are like, lol.

I actually read an interesting article the other day about very shy men. They weren't crossdressers but something stood out and it was this idea that women had more privilege, especially sexual privilege, and these men felt they deserved to be included in this too and this resentment had made them painfully shy around women. They resented being forced into the male club and wanted to feel the way women felt. These men wanted women to pursue them the way men pursue women. Ain't gonna happen as we're not biologically wired that way, so I felt a bit sorry for them as they're clearly a bit mixed up.

Made me wonder if crossdressers aren't just an extreme version of this? If you can't beat 'me, join 'em, as they say. Of course, crossdressing would only make it harder for most men to spend time with women as its largely seen as strange. But I'm fast realizing that few things men do in relation to sex and relationships are rational. Anyway, another interesting thought for you all...