By: Davina

Subject: Re: A bit of fun

Interesting stuff Sindy - See my blog I've made another article out of you post and by all means link in a link to other sources here if you feel they will help

By: Katie

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit of fun

Maybe he was being scathing because she was self-medicating. From what I have read and watched there is quite a rigorous process for a transsexual to go through to become a woman via the NHS. Taking a short cut (excuse the pun) by going privately and not going through the psychiatric tests may be a way of avoiding the truth that they are not actually transsexual.

Maybe in some instances it’s even a form of self-harm but I’m not sufficiently qualified to start making assumptions about what motivates people to do certain things. The mind is a very complex thing and people will get all sorts of ideas into their heads as they search for answers. Quite often we are searching for people who confirm our own views or who seem to be like us. This can make Internet forums very dangerous.

If they found someone who had gone down the path full surgery and said ‘she sounds just like me that what I need to do to solve my problems’ then that may be enough to push someone down the wrong path without taking the proper medical advice. They can buy the hormones on the Internet and get an off the shelf op in Thailand so who wants a psychiatrist telling them they’re wrong!

I don’t know enough about Caitlyn Jenner to comment on her. I haven’t watched any of the TV stuff so it’s only snippets I’ve picked up in the press, which isn’t always balanced.

I don’t like the term transsexual and I don’t think the community particularly likes it themselves. It seems a bit cold and medical and as you say once a man has become a woman that should be the end of the ‘trans’ part as she is now a woman. For a transsexual to become a woman or man it is a huge deal as the whole dynamics of relationships with family, friends and society change. As well as the physical side there is also the mental side to cope with and having corresponded with a couple I can feel their pain.

I’ve seen men describe themselves as being half male and half female. This is not physical but mental and is really the fault of assigning characteristics as masculine and feminine. They think ‘I have feminine characteristic therefore I am part female’.

Sex is biological but gender is a social construct so the ‘continuum’ is just another social construct to describe how people feel /express themselves. It makes it all very confusing. Am I mainly masculine with a few feminine traits or just a male?

This is what makes the whole transgender thing confusing as well. Transsexuals and crossdressers are being lumped under the same umbrella when really we have two very different sets of motivations and aims.

I think that men have an ideal of what they think feminine should be. After all part of our alter ego is our view of femininity – maybe even femininity should be substituted for sexy. Having said that some women can look feminine (sexy) in a black sack whereas other just can’t what ever they try. Some of it is how comfortable you are with your own femininity and you can see that some women are just uncomfortable with the whole dress and heels thing. Maybe it’s a way of them hiding their sexuality and wanting to disappear.

I sometime have this thought that pops into my head when I see a beautifully dressed woman. I think ‘I know what it feels like wearing those clothes’. I never think I know what it feels like to be a woman. I would even struggle to describe what it feels like to be a man. As far as I concerned were all individuals made up of thoughts and feeling that somehow conspire to make us the people we are. Some of it social conditioning and some of it is our natural make up (nature and nurture).

I know I like to have my thoughts challenged and it’s been a long journey to get to where I am today. It’s good to get your views and that of the other wives and partners here as it does make me look at things from a different angle instead of always finding opinions that agree.

Please keep asking questions and challenging our points of view. Together we may come up with some good answers.

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit of fun

But one thing - I disagree that transsexualism is always different and authentic. I have read enough to see some crossdressing men can become obsessive and push a compulsion to the limit and decide to live full time. (The things Caitlyn Jenner says and does is why I question her motives.) I had transwomen email me and tell me they had met MANY crossdressers at their support meetings who were doing exactly this. These transwomen were far more offended by crossdressing men having surgery than anything Grayson Perry could say.

Anyway, enough on this topic.

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit of fun

I would assume everything Grayson Perry says about the 'trans' side is offensive. Not so much crossdressing but he seems fairly skeptical about transsexualism. I guess he's a brave man there...he'd have to be given he goes out publicly wearing little bo peep gear lol.

And really, I'm not particularly interested in the trans side of all this. I was just responding to Katie's pondering of the difference between crossdressers and transexuals, and this 'bit of fun' issue. My husband, since talking truthfully, has pushed me to look more into the 'fetish' side of dressing as that's where he see it. It's a fun, kinky, erotic, relaxing compulsion. I'd agree with this from what I've witnessed. How the others choose to live is not relevant - if you don't mind being lumped in with them, that is. Crossdressers seem to have inherited the transexual movement whether they relate or not. I guess the T in LGBT realized they were an insignificant number without you.

Though, I'm not sure how useful having crossdressers in the movement is to anyone. Seems it might backfire when Little Bo Peep joins the conversation lol.

Anyway, back to crossdressing...

By: Davina

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A bit of fun

I don't like to discuss Transexuals and Trans people further to the right than me as the blog is about Crossdressing and Crossdressing and Trsansexualism is chalk and cheese so will let Grason crack on and state what he likes .. I will say the difference is the same as being a woman and playing at it which is what crossdressers do.

Being a Transexual is serious Crossdressing is not.

There maybe less female to male transsexuals not because because many are 'fixing' their problem in a female way but because women can look like and behave as they like.

Gay men by in large dress as men, Gay women well some dress as men.. so are they crossdressing openly or are they dressing as men as they're the butch lesbian in the relationship..

I have no idea the numbers of female to male transexuals but its a poor option compared to the other way around why would you want to grow body and facial hair and restrict yourself to only ¼ of a department store.

What we want as crossdressers repeating myself is acceptance of it being harmless and no where near transexualism and not all about sex and not at all about sexuality.

LGBT!!! NOOoooo!.

I'm not talking about men's right to freedom of feminine expression here either or our right to possess the role of a woman.

Crossdressing - It's just dressing up..Just dressing up yet as Sindy states this just dressing up somehow psychologically affects our wives and girlfriends identity as women but were not wearing a dress to claim to be a woman.. totally not what Crossdressers are trying to do.. look and act like a woman occasionally maybe but not trying to be women.

Sindy says it is not fair… but is it fair to tell a man he cant dress up like a woman if he wants to?

Patriachy at its worse try repression and equality?

Men who crossdress aren't telling women what its like to be female .. remember a bit of fun and relaxation .. I'm not telling any women how it is to be female at all..

Something we have found in the chatter is women are becoming more masculine and women are moving away from what men like in women in the way women present themselves.. Comfort over glam.

I agree that crossdressing is entirely different from women born as men but disagree with the thought that Women born as men is a very rare, true gender condition.

Crossdressing is a million miles the other direction from what is deemed a very rare true gender condition and also a million miles away from the not uncommon transsexual condition.

I don't think there is a difference between a true gender condition and a transexual they are the same thing.

Becoming a transexual is in no way a crossdresser taking his compulsion to the extreme it is a million miles away from what a crossdresser is that is not saying that a man who crossdresses may not want to move up the ranks of trans to true transvestite and onto a full sex change… but this is not part of this blog.. this blog is the “I'm happy being a crossdresser blog” and the “I'm never going to be anything but a crossdresser” blog.

A man solving a problem in a very male way wanting to experience more femininity “so he lifts the hood and rearranges things!” - a transexual would find that very offensive.

There are some sane, rational, controlled crossdressing men and we are a niche minority but unfortunately Sindy is right we are screwed as the loudest crossdressers are the ones we don't want our wives reading about

By: Sindy

Subject: Re: Re: Re: A bit of fun

Did you notice how Grayson is a bit scathing of the transsexual? I suspect, and this might be just how I see it, that he doesn't think most are legit. He keeps making comments that she (the TS) is acting very manly, and I have to add here that I'd say the same of Caitlyn Jenner! So I was quite interested when Grayson says he thinks transsexualism is mostly a male phenomenon because it's men dealing with an identity problem in a very male way. Something about lifting up the hood and rearranging things or whatever.

Omg, is he right? I suddenly wondered if there are less female to male transsexuals because many are 'fixing' their problem in a female way - by conversation and therapy and learning to live with having a female body. Men are chopping off their boy bits and getting a new set of wheels while women negotiate life with the ride they were given.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is how it is. I have visited (mistakenly) some of the crossdresser forums and regretted it. I really have. But I'll tell you something - very few of those talking on them were female minded. We women can often tell our own kind, as would you, so that's something that gets forgotten. BUT, I could also tell on occasion those who were different. I talked to a couple of TS and it was like chatting to my sister. I don't ever feel this with my husband or here or the forums. I read a statistic once that it's very rare - true transsexualism. I don't even think that's a good name for the women who are born men. They're women with a disease - they don't have a functional female body as such. Anyway in talking to them I could sense the difference immediately.

This will get me hated on I'm sure, but I thought the rest of the so called TS on these forums were crossdressers on crack. And in my mind, Caitlyn Jenner is Bruce Jenner the crossdresser with too much time and money at his/her disposable. Of course, it's up to the person and if this is how they want to spend their lives then whatever. Their impact on our lives will hopefully be minimal.

But it's HUGE for those who are true TS. Again, they don't even want to be called TS because they're women, unlike the fantasy lot who get off on the whole transition process. I don't think there's a gender continuum at all. I think most people are happy with the binary model and that this 'continuum' is something made up by crossdressers trying to gain acceptance via the struggle of others. Remember, we're not talking about men's right to freedom of feminine expression here, but their right to possess the role of a woman. This a very different thing.

Why does this concern wives? Because it affects our identity as women when anyone wearing a dress can claim to be one of us. That's not fair, and in a hundred ways it's patriachy at its worst. Women are literally being told what it's like to be female by MEN!

Gah!!

So, in my mind, crossdressing is entirely different from the very rare, true gender condition of women born as men (need a new label for it). And entirely related to the not uncommon transsexual condition which involves a crossdresser taking his compulsion to the extreme. A man solving a problem in a very male way - he wants to experience more femininity so he lifts the hood and rearranges things!

Thank god for you and Davina, for if I had stumbled here and discovered a world of sane, rational, controlled crossdressing men I wouldn't believe my husband because I'd assume he was like everyone else! The minority always shouts the loudest - and in this case you're screwed as the loudest crossdressers are the ones you don't want your wives reading about!

By: Katie

Subject: Re: Re: A bit of fun

Been trying to think of a way of describing the difference between crossdressers and transsexuals (TS). The best I can come with is the TS want to join the army (women) whereas CDs are happy with paint balling (dressing up and playing soldiers).

Regular soldier probably look down their noses at paint ballers as they're not real soldier with all the dangers and regulation associated with the army. Paint baller get all the thrills without the dangers and can then go back to their regular lives without having to experience any of the regulation.

By: Katie

Subject: Re: A bit of fun

You’re right I don’t dress just for the fun. Fun or enjoyment is a byproduct of dressing along with all the other benefits you mentioned.

It is a compulsion, which is why I can’t stop. I know if I can’t dress then it starts dominating my thinking and I’ll try and manufacture opportunities to dress no matter how fleeting. Sometimes that can make it worse, especially if it’s rushed, as I don’t have all the feeling I want to experience. If I can dress then I don’t always want to or can’t be bothered. It waxes and wanes. I guess being denied something makes the desire even greater, which is really human nature. If I were told I had to dress full-time as a woman I’d probably end up in jeans and a T-shirt as most GGs do.

I am, however, able to control the dressing. If I know that there is any risk in dressing then I won’t do so. I recently had a period of 4 months when dressing time was severely limited but there was alight at the end of the tunnel. It was OK and maybe I was a little bit more moody as I explained previously. I haven’t been in a situation where it is totally denied but I’m sure that my mental health would now suffer in the long term.

I think that I have followed a pretty typical path in my crossdressing. Started pre-teen. Through my teenage years it was very sexual. Spent a period during my 20s to early 30s when I didn’t dress at all and rarely even thought about it. Mid to late 30s started again during a period of high stress. It has become less sexual overtime and more about the feelings and emotions.

I read the blog and thought that the section about the interview with a transsexual (TS) was interesting. Davina says how we are different and as I said before I think we have certain things in common, we all want to dress as women, but that is where the similarity end. TS want to live as women full-time whereas for crossdressers it is a release of emotions that once satisfied means we can return to our male selves where we feel comfortable. A TS will not feel comfortable with their male selves.

By: Sindy

Subject: A bit of fun

Our regular comment 'a bit of fun' has made me scratch my head on occasion. Since when is fun so fraught with such serious social consequences?

And then I remembered reading a fairly smart blog (bluestockingblue) and a three part blog post about Grayson Perry. Apparently Grayson has done some documentary that I'd like to see. Anyway, he discusses this 'fun' issue and says there's no way men would put at risk their jobs, kids, marriages and general lives for a bit of fun. He says it's a compulsion, something you're unable to stop. Something you MUST do, which certainly adds a little less fun to the equation.

Anyway, read the blog. I'd link it here but not sure that's allowed here, Davina? But Grayson seems to know his stuff and he's convinced crossdressing is largely sexual and involves men trying to deal with parts of their identity and desires that weren't allowed...or something like that. I guess boys are never encouraged to feel sexy or soft or pretty or vulnerable or whatever. He writes it really well whereas I'm rubbish lol.

It makes sense though as Davina speaks often about men needing the relaxation and to have more presentation options to look/feel more attractive etc. Grayson explains that crossdressing is men forced to be masculine all the time, dealing with the parts of their personalities (sexual and otherwise) that are more feminine. You can blame the Victorian era apparently, as there was rarely male to female crossdressing prior to it, it was all women dressing as men as women were the restricted gender. And then the separation of feminine qualities from men's lives and all the froufrou clothes women were suddenly wearing saw this rise in male crossdressing. It seems when you box one gender in, it will seek freedom on the other side. Intriguing.

So yes it's fun, but I also know it's also fairly important to your wellbeing. It becomes less fun when you can't do it, am I right? That's the compulsion side of things. Compulsions are hard work to live with if you let them control you. I think that's the issue with some of the more extreme crossdressers. Men like you and Davina have struck a healthy balance, but I wonder if there are times you feel the compulsion to dress could almost win over common sense? What do you do during these times?

And yes, acceptance will balance all this out. Grayson apparently interviews people of the younger generation and there is less and less crossdressing in the classic sense. Boys are embracing their 'feminine' parts of their appearance and personalities, and Grayson even makes the connection that were men not so boxed into masculinity, transvestism wouldn't exist.

Let's hope there's a future somewhere where both men and women can be entirely whole people.