By: Sindy
Subject: Second thoughts - Boundaries
Here is the other issue Davina's post brought up - the scenario of the wife wearing men's clothing. In fact, if we were to track her apparent crossdressing story back along the typical path, she would have started by trying on a pair of her father's boxer shorts in the laundry pile, or perhaps a pair of her brother's that he left on his bedroom floor. She'd have stood in front of the mirror admiring herself and even felt all tingly inside.
As a woman, I can tell you this is not only ridiculous, but I'd bet 99% of women's gag reflexes occurred reading this.
We just don't do this stuff. We usually acknowledge and accept the boundaries society says about privacy etc. I haven't read a single story of a transman starting his journey by stealing his father's underwear. This seems an entirely male thing.
And then, as crossdressing men get older, the boundaries seem to become smaller and smaller. Now they can go out in public wearing women's clothing and feel 'tingly'. They can enter women's spaces and surprise the wife and maybe even tell the kids. Why not?!
Yet, logically, is society able to function without boundaries? I'd guess most people would say no. So why then do crossdressers feel entitled to overstep so many of them? And I'm not talking gender boundaries that insist boys and girls act a certain way as I disagree we should have such a thing. I'm talking privacy, where young crossdressing boys sneak other people's underwear without much apparent thought. I'm talking the respect of others by later parading about in public as their 'alter ego', still feeling 'tingly' as so many describe, so that others, by default, are forced to participate. Wives and kids are expected to get over their own inbuilt boundaries and just put up with it. Often, crossdressers will come out to everyone and suddenly a little boy's fantasy life has been inflicted on society at large.
So what gives? And I know you and Katie don't do half this stuff I've written here, but many do. So do crossdressers willingly ignore these obvious boundaries, or don't they realize they are there in the first place?
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Second thoughts - Boundaries
And I get that 'fetish' is not a connection most men want to make. That's because it's been linked to entirely sexual expression now, whereas in truth anyone can have a non sexual fetish for any object or behavior, including cleaning or even paint colors lol.
I like this definition: 'any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion:'
So I do think crossdressing falls into this category, but given the dislike of the word fetish, maybe 'devoted hobbyist' is better. :-)
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Second thoughts - Boundaries
I don't think I use my car or wallet to show off. I consider my car outside storage. It's nearly 15 years old, the interior is muddy and the boot full of footballs, cones and other training kit! I only talk the balls out to fit in the cricket bags!
I'm not sure that crossdressing is just a way of expressing our 'peacock' side as it runs deeper But is is an unquestioning devotion to women and femininity (fetish).
I think all crossdressers get this thrill and excitement in wearing pretty things and the pretty things happen to be labelled feminine. I've always wondered if women get the same thrill in getting dressed up or because it is not denied to you it is just normal?
I do also think that the very fact that the items are labelled as feminine which somehow make them forbidden and therefore more 'exciting'.
Clothes shouldn't matter so much but they do because of the power they possess. We can form attachments to certain items of clothing and keep them hidden away in draws never to be worn again. But we still keep them for sentimental reasons, the memories of good time and feelings.
On a slightly different tack I read a review of a book about decluttering. In it the woman said you had to actually say 'thank you' to the clothes for giving you these memories before you could get rid of them. She also talked about how clothes can give you a 'tingle' when you hold them whereas others don't. She said the ones that make you feel good should be kept and those that don't can be disposed of.
I know that some of the women's clothes that I have can make my heart race just holding them whereas there are very few (if any) of my males clothes that elicit the same response. If I had to purge my wardrobe(s) on the same basis I wouldn't be able to leave the house lol.
Being a heterosexual male is a very binary option.You either tow the line or you're 'gay'.
Gay men have monopolised all the good stuff because they don't care about being called gay. For a heterosexual male to be called gay is regarded as an insult. Rightly or wrongly that the way it is in the modern (older) male society.
So:
If I want to shave my body - gay.
If I wanted to shape my eyebrows - gay.
If I wanted to wear flamboyant clothes -gay.
If i wanted wear a little makeup - gay.
If I want to wear feminine clothes - gay.
If I wanted to show my emotions - gay.
If I want to paint my nails - gay.
If I want to wear heels - gay.
If my wife worn my shirt - sexy. If I wore her blouse - gay.
If my wife my a tuxedo - sexy. If I wore her evening dress - gay.
The list goes on.
If we had the freedom to wear what we wanted then crossdressing wouldn't exist. It may make finding a mate a little more difficult but a lot more fun!
Alternatively to even things up we could always adopt the Chairman Moa approach where everyone wears baggy drab clothes. Then it'd only be women, gay men and crossdressers trying to do something different!
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Second thoughts - Boundaries
Exactly! Look at those dandy men of yesteryear, and the men wearing knickerbockers and heels and curly wigs and neck ruffles - they were the height of masculinity! Not sure why we changed tack and decided to ignore what is probably a very innate need for men to show off to a mate. Now men use their cars and wallets. I guess it's the same thing...crossdressers who are masculine identified must be the last of the peacock men!
And that's an intriguing thought - what if I HAD to dress plain and frumpy with no choice (as men currently have it). Wow, just made me realize how utterly unfair it is that you don't have any choice. Being on the girl side I don't think much about pretty clothes etc as I know they're there if needed. But you don't have that option unless you do what you do now. Thanks for the headspin Katie - I suddenly feel infuriated that anyone could take away my choice like that, and you're probably right, if I couldn't wear it I'd probably spend all day thinking about those damn pretty dresses.
I can't believe I never really considered this issue properly before. It really is very unfair. Why is it like this for crying out loud? Why did men lose all the ruffles and pretty clothing options?
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Second thoughts - Boundaries
I think we do dress as the women we desire. I am inspired by the clothes that my wife wears and the women I see on TV - mainly BBC breakfast TV!
I do think that couples tend to mirror each other in many ways. If he dresses like a slob so will she. If he has tattoos so will she. If he's well groomed so is she. I guess that part of the attraction is finding someone like yourself, that you can feel comfortable with. So gay men who take pride in their appearance will also look for other gay men who do the same.
I think that when the crossdressing starts at a young age it could be termed 'fetish' although it does seem a bit of a harsh word to describe someone so innocent in many way. I think 'fetish' also has negative connotations which is why most crossdressers will avoid using the term. I also think that the sexual 'fetish' side diminishes over time and it is just down to the joy and fun which is why it is shunned by crossdressers. I think you're right in that the feminine is so powerful we are helpless to resist!
And the feminine you describe is the feminine we desire in our women not the way most women look. I can tell you I would't be seen dead in some the clothes some women wear (when I'm dressed) - especially the 'butch' lesbians! I wear that when I'm in my male drab gear.
I know it's taking Davina's scenario to another level but I wonder how you'd feel in men's clothes? An old T shirts, baggy jeans, rough cotton boxer, trainers and no make up. Do you think you'd appreciate your own clothes even more? To be able to feel sexy?
Maybe there is a bit of the peacock in men but it's just society that keeps it hidden in most. If you make too much effort you get called 'gay' so maybe it's societies way of keeping the male population drab. In most of nature it is the male who is more flamboyant with manes, big plumage and bright colours so in the human state it's a real role reversal. Maybe crossdressing is a primeval condition in wanting to be showy to get a mate lol. After all you don't need to go back to far in human history to find men prancing around in heels, wigs and makeup looking very dandy!
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Second thoughts - Boundaries
That reads like I'm saying you're gay. Im not. Just that I think crossdressers create a female image that stems from the women they desire, and I suspect, though I could be wrong, that the very attractive, well groomed, buff gay men create the image of the men they desire. I don't know about the gay guys for sure though but having studied, worked and even lived with many of them before my ordinary married life now, this was the feeling I got - that they were projecting their desires onto their own image. I feel crossdressers do the same. And so do lesbians.
But I could be completely wrong!
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Second thoughts - Boundaries
Makes sense that the boundaries are sort of being ignored. Maybe you are pioneering a new wave of future men! I guess I always wondered of the thought process when a boy wears girls clothing but it sounds like the big thought is that women's items are sexy and exciting, and in many ways almost wield power over some men - which is the basic definition of 'fetish'. I know many cross dressers hate that word but the more I read the more I see it largely is a fetish act, in the sense that the feminine seems so powerful you're helpless to resist and want to indulge it for yourself. Or maybe I'm just overthinking again haha.
And you're making me laugh about the lipstick lesbians. I have a beautiful school friend who came out a few years back and in that short time she's chopped off her long hair, bulked up, pierced many body parts and started wearing men's clothing. This is a woman who modelled. Her girlfriend looks the same. In fact, every week they grow more masculine...and you're right. If they love women, why don't they desire to look more stereotypically feminine?
Which got me on a weird track that maybe this IS what women look like. I mean, it seems that all the female finery crossdressers love are basically loathed by the majority of women. So why do we wear it? For men. So are lesbians just women in their natural habitat without the critical gaze of men on them? And are crossdressers men who dress for that male gaze? (Their own gaze of course...you're the only man you're trying to attract lol). That would also explain why gay men are obsessive about their looks but in a masculine way (immaculately groomed gay men and straight crossdressers have much in common, I swear) and many are very attractive male specimens, much to the disappointment of straight women everywhere. Yes, Ricky Martin, you broke our hearts. lol. Anyway, maybe men were always meant to be the beautiful peacock and women that dowdy brown peahen everyone ignores. Hmmm...definitely off on a weird track there.
I think we should just swap outfits permanently and be done with it. Problem solved! :-)
By: Katie
Subject: Re: Second thoughts - Boundaries
I agree with Davina that female lingerie is very sexualised. You only need to look on the M&S website to find 'sexy lingerie' as a category. I don't think you'll find that in the male underwear section!
I can remember as a young boy being taken to the toilet in a department store which meant a trip through the lingerie section. It was like taking a peak into a forbidden world and maybe helped pique my interest!
You mentioned about no transman pinching his fathers boxers. Well equally I'm not sure the any transwoman would necessarily have pinched her mother lingerie. I think that the motivations are different than those of a crossdresser.
I think that generally crossdressers have an idealised version of femininity which normally include dresses, skirts, stocking and heels. All of it impractical for everyday life, but then again we're not dressing for everyday life. A transwoman would look to dress to blend and the clothes are there only to confirm her identity and not for a sexual reasons.
It funny but I was thinking of a post along a similar line but looking at how many lesbians dress. As most men and the fantasy version of a lesbian relationship is two 'lipstick' lesbian and maybe to a degree that is the fantasy that many aspire to in a relationship with their wives. It is also generally how lesbians are depicted in film and television.
In reality many lesbian dress in a very masculine way. I live in a city with a big gay population and often see 'butch' lesbians around town. From a male point of view I can't see the attraction of a woman dressed as a man (ironic I know). Equally if you are a woman who is attracted to women why would you want them to look like a man? I have a couple in the same road as I live, one is typically feminine and the other very masculine (wears exclusively male clothing, short guys haircut etc) and acts very much as the male partner. She may well be a transman but I struggle to wonder why a lesbian woman would want to be in a partnership with a woman who for all intense and purposes is a man. Why not just go out with a man? Obviously there are reason but I find it hard to fathom without actually asking the question.
So are lesbian who dress as men crossdressers?
I think that the fact that a lesbian will dress in a masculine way sometime confuses society in that men who dress as women must be gay in the same way. I should also make the point that women can wear male clothes in a 'sexy' and feminine way. These lesbians wear male clothes in a very masculine way.
I hope that this doesn't make me sound prejudiced in anyway. I love the fact that I live in a very diverse city and it doesn't bother me in the slightest how people present themselves. It also means that the social boundaries are knowingly being constantly pushed which is a good thing. If members of society didn't push these boundaries then we would never progress as a society. If gay men hadn't become more vocal then they'd still be hiding in the shadows instead of being 'out and proud'. If women hadn't been more vocal in the past and pushed for change they probably still wouldn't get a vote! I know that there are countries around the world that don't allow these privileges but when we in the west look at them we think of them as being backward. Do we want a progressive society of one that stay stuck in the 15th century?
So let's celebrate those wishing to push societies boundaries, who knows where it might lead but more tolerance has got to be a good thing. Some things people will find uncomfortable but only because they are new. As the saying goes 'familiarity brings contempt'. My view on gay people is very different to my parents. They struggle with the whole concept because it just wasn't visible in their day. Now gay people are very visible in the media and everyday life. There are of course still those who will hit out but increasingly they will become the minority. Likewise 'trans' is very much the new 'gay' as far are the media is concerned and it is slowly becoming mainstream as people understanding becomes greater. I know that crossdressing is still very much in the shadows but it is making it's way to the surface via personalities such as Eddie Izzard and Grayson Perry. So maybe little boys fantasies should be inflicted on society at large so that more people can feel free to express how they feel.
Of course as a footnote there are certain boundaries that shouldn't be pushed and anything that is physically damaging or that affects someone incapable of making a rational decisions should remain in place.
By: Sindy
Subject: Re: Re: Second thoughts - Boundaries
I haven't encountered a single story where transgender girls have worn family members boxers etc. I guess this could be because female clothing usually includes masculine options. But I mostly suspect it's because the motivation is very different.
I still wonder about the boundary thing though. I do think it's curious that some little boys can ignore such a big social taboo. My own sons seem so obedient! Am I in denial? lol. I look forward to your thoughts, Davina. Meanwhile, enjoy the last hours of your relaxing trip!
By: Davina
Subject: Re: Second thoughts - Boundaries
Still on hols but peeking in..
Do we know crossdressing women don't try on someone's boxers? I have no idea.
There is a difference as women's lingerie is sexualised and to a young man boy it's a I wonder how they feel against my skin then it's that sexy revelation and a I wonder what other things would look like on... I will elaborate more when home tomorrow as the holiday draws to a close..